A Change Of Mind
 

A few weeks ago, I decided I was going to take an extended break from this forum. I purged all my subscribed threads and cleared my private messages. I felt I was no longer able to participate in a meaningful way. It is true that I understand little about the math, but far more than I did a decade ago.

I have recently thought about my days with MS-DOS back in the late 1980's and how easy it was for me to learn. I can say the same for all the Windows variants since. Many here like to look down their noses at Windows users. The same can be said of Linux users. I can easily spot the differences in topics and stay away from Linux content.

So, I will return on a "trial" basis and see how it goes. I stayed away for three years a decade ago. I will limit my contributions so I do not incur the wrath of a few. That is all.

The Windows versus Linux discussion often becomes heated but I thought this time that people managed
on the whole to be critical of the other technology without attacking its users personally.
If you feel you have "incurred the wrath of a few" again in the future, please feel free to
report the relevant post(s) via the triangle-with-exclamation-mark.
We like to keep each other's wits sharp on this forum but it should be with respect for everyone!

[QUOTE=Nick;576544]The Windows versus Linux discussion often becomes heated but I thought this time that people managed
on the whole to be critical of the other technology without attacking its users personally.
If you feel you have "incurred the wrath of a few" again in the future, please feel free to
report the relevant post(s) via the triangle-with-exclamation-mark.
We like to keep each other's wits sharp on this forum but it should be with respect for everyone![/QUOTE]

I have been aware of the red triangle, but never thought of using it before. I noticed something recently which I had not been aware of previously, the "Ignore List." I have already added one member who always attempted to highlight my perceived ignorance about most things. I ended up doing a public dressing-down of his statements not long ago. There has been no badgering since.

[QUOTE=storm5510;576511] back in the late 1980's and how easy it was for me to learn[/QUOTE]
That goes for us all. I don't think is related to MS-Dos or Windows. It is called "aging". Here being a DOS/Windows user and programmer for close to 40 years, making a living of it, and had some Linux courses in the Uni (2 semesters, actually, that was like 35 years ago too), and never used it for more than trifles ever since, and I still suck at it. And I am not afraid, neither ashamed to say it. Our force, as a group, stays in the fact that we are different. Some excel in domains where others suck, and vice-versa. And we can help each-other, if we have a positive attitude about it.

[QUOTE=Nick;576544]The Windows versus Linux discussion often becomes heated but I thought this time that people managed
on the whole to be critical of the other technology without attacking its users personally.
If you feel you have "incurred the wrath of a few" again in the future, please feel free to
report the relevant post(s) via the triangle-with-exclamation-mark.
We like to keep each other's wits sharp on this forum but it should be with respect for everyone![/QUOTE]Religious arguments can be great fun as long as no-one takes it personally.

Something I learned many years ago: take note of your opponents' arguments. Next time someone is espousing your favourite system take up the opposite position and use your learning against them.

More generally: a Devil's Advocate is an extremely useful function. Pay attention to them and learn how to become one yourself.

[QUOTE=xilman;576601]. . .
More generally: a Devil's Advocate is an extremely useful function. Pay attention to them and learn how to become one yourself.[/QUOTE]I remember going to a meeting that was scheduled to find reasons to keep one of our sections local. After hearing the proposal we were to oppose, I said something to the effect that it seemed quite apparent that the other entity was much more capable of performing the needed task and maybe we should accept that route. Boy, was I popular!

My boss stepped in and suggested that my "Devil's Advocacy" would help us look at the areas we could work on to bring our local section up to the other's level.

[QUOTE=EdH;576605]My boss stepped in and suggested that my "Devil's Advocacy" would help us look at the areas we could work on to bring our local section up to the other's level.[/QUOTE]Good for your boss, and for you!

That is possibly the most important role for a Devil's Advocate.

[QUOTE=LaurV;576569]That goes for us all. I don't think is related to MS-Dos or Windows. It is called "aging". Here being a DOS/Windows user and programmer for close to 40 years, making a living of it, and had some Linux courses in the Uni (2 semesters, actually, that was like 35 years ago too), and never used it for more than trifles ever since, and I still suck at it. And I am not afraid, neither ashamed to say it. Our force, as a group, stays in the fact that we are different. Some excel in domains where others suck, and vice-versa. And we can help each-other, if we have a positive attitude about it.[/QUOTE]

40 years. I salute you for your dedication. "Aging" is spot-on. There is another word that works as well, experience. We tend to go, or fall back on, what we know best. We use these things without giving them much though because we are used to them. Leaning anything new takes repetition and exposure. At my age, it is tiresome and tedious. It is much easier to pick up the little details as they come along based on something I have already learned the majority of over time.

I consider the majority of my programming skills as being with "antique" languages. BASIC, COBOL, Pascal, ANSI C, and Assembly. These were the things I was taught in trade-school in the late 1980's and early 1990's. My most recent attempt was with Perl two years ago. I was able to write some meaningful code, but I did not stay with it. Now, I recognize it when I see it, but not much more. The "C" style languages simply sail over my head.

It is true that some excel in areas where others do not. The reverse also applies. Somewhere in all of this, there is a balance, meaning everyone can contribute based on what they have learned over the years. I try.

[QUOTE=xilman;576601]Something I learned many years ago: take note of your opponents' arguments.[/QUOTE]
:davar55: We would say, in our language, "if you can not convince them, confuse them!" :razz:

[QUOTE=storm5510;576639]The "C" style languages simply sail over my head.[/QUOTE]
It might be worth giving them a second look.
University students who find it difficult typically stumble over things like pointers
- but as you're familiar with assembly programming that won't be a problem
(they're just addresses). My experience of Pascal was that it was more awkward
to use than C, with so many extra (and unnecessary) rules.

[QUOTE=storm5510;576639]My most recent attempt was with Perl two years ago. I was able to write some meaningful code, but I did not stay with it.[/QUOTE]That was exactly my relationship with Perl in the mid- to late-90's. Took me about 5-10 years to become fluent in the language.

It is now by far my favourite programming language.

Stick with it, in other words, and don't require that you gain instant comprehension.

[QUOTE=xilman;576721]It is now by far my favourite programming language.

Stick with it, in other words, and don't require that you gain instant comprehension.[/QUOTE]

Indeed! Perl is my language of choice for most situations. I sometimes will prototype in Perl for proof-of-concept work, and then port to C if I need speed, or to protect intellectual property.

My opinion is, like any language, Perl can be easy to read or nearly unassailable. It's up to the programmer if they want their code to be maintainable...

I think the biggest learning curve, and what stops many people, is not Perl itself but rather its tight integration with RegEx. But once you've made friends with that, you can do amazing things with strings really quickly!

[QUOTE=Nick;576719]It might be worth giving them a second look.
University students who find it difficult typically stumble over things like pointers
- but as you're familiar with assembly programming that won't be a problem
(they're just addresses). My experience of Pascal was that it was more awkward
to use than C, with so many extra (and unnecessary) rules.[/QUOTE]

Back in my schooling days, Assembly Language was for 8086 processors. This would be a skeleton compared to what there is now, I suspect.

As for C, pointers threw everyone in my class, including me. As I recall, there were no sub's, only functions. At the time, I didn't understand the nesting. Now, I believe I do. One "main" function with all others contained within. I struggled with all the needed declarations at the top. You include only what you need, as Perl does. Knowing what was needed was a problem. Decades of using other languages clarified some of it, but not all.

[QUOTE=chalsall;576744]Indeed! Perl ... or to protect intellectual property.![/QUOTE]Too far off-topic for the present thread, but it is not that hard to protect IP in Perl, depending on the level of protection required within a specific environment.

[QUOTE=chalsall;576744]My opinion is, like any language, Perl can be easy to read or nearly unassailable. It's up to the programmer if they want their code to be maintainable.[/QUOTE]:tu:

Very strongly agree. I have written Perl scripts well in excess of 10K lines of source which cow-orkers with only tourist-level fluency have had no significant difficulty following and modifying if needed.

[QUOTE=xilman;576755]Too far off-topic for the present thread...[/QUOTE]

Perhaps, but it is my thread to moderate. I would rather it drift than to continue to discuss what I would feel as being distasteful.

[QUOTE=storm5510;576862]Perhaps, but it is my thread to moderate. I would rather it drift than to continue to discuss what I would feel as being distasteful.[/QUOTE]Fairy Nuff: the current standard approach with source-code based distributions is to ship an interface to a networked black box server which is under your complete control.

The previous approach was to insist on non-disclosure and sue your customers into insolvency if their version of your code leaked.

Works as well with Perl as with any other language.

[QUOTE=Nick;576719]It might be worth giving them a second look.
University students who find it difficult typically stumble over things like pointers
- but as you're familiar with assembly programming that won't be a problem
(they're just addresses). My experience of Pascal was that it was more awkward
to use than C, with so many extra (and unnecessary) rules.[/QUOTE]

I am seriously considering a second look. The majority of used programs here are console as opposed to GUI. I believe this would be a good place to start. Any recommendations on what to use?

[QUOTE=storm5510;576880]The majority of used programs here are console as opposed to GUI. I believe this would be a good place to start. Any recommendations on what to use?[/QUOTE]
Perhaps this may help and perhaps not, think back to DJGPP, UBasic, Numega, Fravia (iczelion tutorials..) and the like. Around 80/81 in Elec. Eng. we studied a Motorola processor (68000?) in one of the classes at U Windsor. I don't quite remember its version but I do recall it being a challenge. Those were my dumpster diving days where a few of us learned how to utilize and innovate ways to obtain better mainframe access..etc..
Having gotten older but perhaps not growing up enough, before embarking on any conceptual adventures I try to understand the equipment and tools used to fashion them, especially the mathematics. From the physical properties of the materials to making them dance to your tune(s)..a small pun regarding software optimization..you need to know what is mathematically feasible and not. Know and understand your constraints so that you can either work with them, work around them or demolish them with appropriate creativity. Try to prove to yourself what is possible with what you have..you should be able to map out your potential contribution relative to everyone else engaged in the same game.

[QUOTE=storm5510;576880]I am seriously considering a second look. The majority of used programs here are console as opposed to GUI. I believe this would be a good place to start. Any recommendations on what to use?[/QUOTE]
Our students currently use the book "Absolute C++" by W. Savitch, but it is quite expensive.
Older editions may be available at a lower price.
Various compilers, web resources and books are listed here:
[URL]https://isocpp.org/get-started[/URL]

[QUOTE=Nick;576904]Our students currently use the book "Absolute C++" by W. Savitch, but it is quite expensive.
Older editions may be available at a lower price.
Various compilers, web resources and books are listed here:
[URL]https://isocpp.org/get-started[/URL][/QUOTE]

I looked at your link. Seeing Visual Studio 2017 reminded me of something I have. Visual Studio Express 2008. It has C++ and C#. I sort of doubt I could install it on Windows 10. The disc I have is a DVD+R. Historically, I have not had much luck with +R's. I have a utility program called VSO Inspector which will scan a compact disc. It can do surface scans and file tests.To my surprise, this DVD, burned in 2009, passed both tests.

My issue with Visual Studio programs is all the Dot-Net baggage that must go with them. No stand-alone programs. I will keep on browsing for something practical I can use.

[QUOTE=storm5510;576941]My issue with Visual Studio programs is all the Dot-Net baggage that must go with them. No stand-alone programs.[/QUOTE]

That is actually no longer entirely true. But, even though I have VS installed on one of my WinBlows development boxen, I still don't use it. I don't like IDEs; I'm a console guy.

[QUOTE=storm5510;576941]I will keep on browsing for something practical I can use.[/QUOTE]

Make friends with GCC. If you want to explore alternative spaces, look into Clang.

If you like using IDEs, look into Eclipse.

[QUOTE=storm5510;576941]...something I have. Visual Studio Express 2008. It has C++ and C#. I sort of doubt I could install it on Windows 10.
(snip)

I will keep on browsing for something practical I can use.[/QUOTE]
The attachment at [URL]https://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=516181&postcount=11[/URL] says Windows 10 would require at least VS2010.
One of the (free) alternatives is [URL="https://www.msys2.org/"]msys2/mingw[/URL] with g++. That's how I [URL="https://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=532454&postcount=21"]build Windows GpuOwl[/URL]. (Most of the gpuowl build environment prep could be omitted if you're doing cpu code only; no AMD APP SDK, or OpenCL.)

[QUOTE=storm5510;576941]No stand-alone programs. I will keep on browsing for something practical I can use.[/QUOTE]We are being very serious with this link. You can run it in DOS.

[URL]http://cc.embarcadero.com/item/25636[/URL]

There is more info [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borland_Turbo_C"]here[/URL].

:mike:

[QUOTE=xilman;576755]Too far off-topic for the present thread, but it is not that hard to protect IP in Perl, depending on the level of protection required within a specific environment.[/QUOTE]

xilman is talking about offering Software as a Service. SaaS. That makes the most sense with regards to scalability nowadays. Hide the IP behind an API interface, and you're good to go.

Not trying to gloat about this, but I once confronted the great (but broke) Richard Sallman when he was presenting in Vancouver. You know, the hippy genius who understands that human law is just code.

I asked him about the fact that the GPL license didn't protect those who took Free Software and forked it.

The man didn't care. Well, actually, he said "yeah, the license didn't envision that."

And then he brushed me off, and took twenty dollar bills (Canadian) for his books.

True storey.

[QUOTE=Xyzzy;576954]We are being very serious with this link. [COLOR=Gray]You can run it in DOS.[/COLOR]
[/QUOTE]

[U]I clearly understand this[/U].

All of you have given a lot of options. I appreciate your offerings. I need a little time to pick through the recommendations.

[QUOTE=storm5510;576960]I need a little time to pick through the recommendations.[/QUOTE]

You are a sentient being. Take counsel. And then make your own decision.

Seriously! :smile:

I do most of my C/C++ programming with [URL="https://www.codeblocks.org/"]Code::Blocks[/URL]. It's Free and runs in Windows and Linux. (You need to istall a compiler like minGW in Windows.) A lot of my programs that are built with it can be compiled with gcc/g++ in a console with their simple command lines. I even write programs with GMP included with Code:Blocks.

I have used Dev-C++ long ago with Windows, but I haven't done anything with it lately because all my more recent programming has been for Linux.