[QUOTE=garo;543111]You have a point Paul that economic considerations aren’t the sole factor in voting decisions. But of course the economic impact of Brexit won’t be borne by people of your demographic. Out of curiosity would you still vote leave knowing what you know now and seeing the dogs dinner being made of Brexit?[/QUOTE]Yes, I would.

It's not clear to me that "dogs-dinner" is accurate but I will let that ride.

Perhaps you were not aware that Brexit may have deleterious side-effects for me too, economic and non-economic. A hit to GDP through increased administrative expenses at UK/EU borders raises prices and reduces my investment income. It remains to be seen how much the UK's freedom to act independently will counteract this. For instance, given the freedom to set VAT levels appropriate to the UK market could well reduce prices in certain areas.

Were you aware that I have a house in La Palma as well as in England? The UK has never been part of Schengen so document-free travel has not been an option. Nonetheless, the removal of freedom of movement will possibly hinder my travel.

I look forward to you standing in line at the Spanish embassy annually. It’s the least you could do given that you would have chosen to deprive the young ones of Erasmus.
I think this’s this “freedom to act” is vastly overrated. Can you tell me what things the UK cannot do right now that leaving the EU will allow it to do? Apart from sending £350m a week to the NHS of course.
PS: Wait what? I just reread your post. How does the EU stop the UK from setting VAT rates?

[QUOTE=garo;543149]I look forward to you standing in line at the Spanish embassy annually. It’s the least you could do given that you would have chosen to deprive the young ones of Erasmus.
I think this’s this “freedom to act” is vastly overrated. Can you tell me what things the UK cannot do right now that leaving the EU will allow it to do? Apart from sending £350m a week to the NHS of course.
PS: Wait what? I just reread your post. How does the EU stop the UK from setting VAT rates?[/QUOTE]I spotted it.

"Right now" is the killer. For the next 8 months or so we have to abide by EU regulations.

Come 2021-01-01 we could, for instance, remove VAT from tampons and sanitary towels. Under current regulations we can not. Even states in the US have greater freedom of action, and they are bound into a much closer economic union.

[QUOTE=xilman;543157]Come 2021-01-01 we could, for instance, remove VAT from tampons and sanitary towels. Under current regulations we can not. Even states in the US have greater freedom of action, and they are bound into a much closer economic union.[/QUOTE]That, of course, and in itself is an almost but not quite trivial example. It is a special case of other decisions with regard to the VAT regime which are presently impossible to implement.

If you would like a more significant example, again from economics, which many people appear to regard as of overriding importance, we are not allowed to negotiate free-trade agreements with major economies such as Japan, China, South Korea and the US.

[QUOTE=garo;543149]I look forward to you standing in line at the Spanish embassy annually.[/QUOTE]That is a matter for a bilateral agreement between the Spanish and British governments.

I have never needed to stand in line at the US, Swiss, Canadian or Australian embassies, none of which are presently in the EU. Prior to their joining the EU I did not need to stand in line at the Irish embassy either.

For the avoidance of doubt, I will restate my position previously made public. I am firmly in favour of freedom of movement of those capable of supporting themselves and their dependents. The EU is profoundly discriminatory in that it treats Austrians differently from Australians in this respect. I would treat both exactly the same.

For my part, I support myself economically in La Palma and pay all local taxes fully and promptly. For instance, I am not a burden on the Spanish health system in that I pay for my treatments and, for the time being, my EHIC allows the Spanish system to reclaim any expenses from the NHS. I hope, and expect, that the UK and Spain will negotiate a similar system as it is in the interests of both parties to do so, given how many of each other's nationals live in the other country.

Fair point about the VAT. While it is a trivial example it goes to show how long and bureaucratic simple changes are within the EU.
Regarding freedom of movement, while there is discrimination between Austria and Australia it is entirely due to the UK government as it has sole competence on how to treat non-EU visitors and immigrants. So leaving the EU does not give the UK government any additional powers on how to treat people from Australia. Staying in the EU gave Europeans additional rights and the UK government could have chosen to confer the same to non-EU citizens. But of course the Go Home vans and xenophobia is what was chosen by the UK government. Also the UK could ask EU citizens without means to leave after certain time 90 or 180 days I think but the UK has chosen not to do so.
The UK has been part of the EEA since 1973 when almost no one had to stand in line. The world has changed a lot since then. I fully expect the EU and the UK to come up with some sensible arrangement re travel and residents but I also fully expect the home office to make a balls of it. They already have if a large number of reports from academics who submitted lengthy applications for leave to stay are to be believed. I can provide examples of you wish. So colour me sceptical on the claim that leaving the EU will simplify matters and reduce red tape.
Finally free trade agreements. Look forward to seeing the UK negotiate something when no longer part of the EU. It’s a dog eat dog world and imperial nostalgia notwithstanding the UK is a relatively small dog.

[QUOTE=garo;543170]Regarding freedom of movement, while there is discrimination between Austria and Australia it is entirely due to the UK government as it has sole competence on how to treat non-EU visitors and immigrants.[/QUOTE]No it is not entirely due to the UK. The EU does not allow freedom of movement within Europe for Australian citizens.

For example, suppose I employ an Australian gardener to tend my garden in my Cambridgeshire property. I could [b]not[/b] legally (under Spanish law) employ the same person to look after my garden in La Palma while I am there.

(Assume the gardener has a work permit issued by the UK government. The gardener would be dependent on being issued an appropriate visa by the Spanish government.)

[QUOTE=garo;543170]Finally free trade agreements. Look forward to seeing the UK negotiate something when no longer part of the EU. It’s a dog eat dog world and imperial nostalgia notwithstanding the UK is a relatively small dog.[/QUOTE]I gave you a specific example in response to your request for an action which the EU presently forbids the UK from undertaking.

[QUOTE=xilman;543173]No it is not entirely due to the UK. The EU does not allow freedom of movement within Europe for Australian citizens.

For example, suppose I employ an Australian gardener to tend my garden in my Cambridgeshire property. I could [B]not[/B] legally (under Spanish law) employ the same person to look after my garden in La Palma while I am there.

(Assume the gardener has a work permit issued by the UK government. The gardener would be dependent on being issued an appropriate visa by the Spanish government.)[/QUOTE]
I think you are changing the question ever so slightly here. My point was that the UK controls freedom of movement within its borders. It can chose to discriminate or give the same status to EU and non-EU alike. I don't see how UK leaving the EU changes that situation. The status of an Australian gardener in both the UK and EU-27 remains the same regardless of Brexit. Unless they get married to a Spanish person in which case they can work everywhere in the EU right now but not the UK after 2020-12-31. So Brexit will reduce immigration rights not increase them.

Philosophically I agree with your point on immigration having been an immigrant a few times over. The discriminatory nature of EU's policy though is entirely independent of Brexit. And the UK discriminates plenty. And I am willing to give you very good odds that it won't make its regime more liberal to non-EU citizens after Brexit. It will just make it's regime more restrictive for EU citizens. So Brexit will do the exact opposite of your preferred stance on immigration.
I am sure you are aware of the NHS surcharge that all non-EU immigrants currently have to pay. Even non-EU doctors working in the NHS have to pay that charge! No other EU country has such a discriminatory charge. So I would say that the UK is steadily becoming worse in its treatment of migrants compared to most other EU countries. And the UK will start charging temporary EU migrants after Brexit. So not only does the UK currently discriminate between EU and non-EU migrants, it will start discriminating between long-term EU migrants and short-term EU migrants from January 2021. I expect this will draw a tit-for-tat response from the EU.

[QUOTE=garo;543182]The status of an Australian gardener in both the UK and EU-27 remains the same regardless of Brexit.[/QUOTE]Indeed. The situation wrt to non-EU citizens before and after Brexit remains discriminatory which is exactly as I stated for the pre-Brexit situation.

[QUOTE=xilman;543174]I gave you a specific example in response to your request for an action which the EU presently forbids the UK from undertaking.[/QUOTE]

Yes and I granted as much even though you admitted it was a trivial example. I'm just not as sanguine about the UK's ability to set up better (for itself) free trade agreements with other trading nations than it currently has as being a member of the EU. And it certainly will have a worse trading arrangement with the rest of the EU than it currently has.