Electrical Service Rates
 

I often see members here writing about their utility services costs and how they are trying to reduce them by changing hardware setups, and so on. I am curious about the service rates in other parts of the country. So, what is your current kWh rate?

I'll start: $0.15 per kWh in Southern Indiana (Duke Energy).

Don't get me started on my usual rant about high electricity costs.

$0.33 per kWh in Denmark (2.1654 dkk/kWH) (DONG Energy)

(yes it is a terrible name in English, but it is actually called that [url]https://www.dongenergy.dk/privat/priser/el[/url] . It stands for "Dansk Olie og Natur Gas" (Danish Oil and Natural Gas).

[QUOTE=ATH;459990](yes it is a terrible name in English, but it is actually called that [url]https://www.dongenergy.dk/privat/priser/el[/url] . It stands for "Dansk Olie og Natur Gas" (Danish Oil and Natural Gas).[/QUOTE]Like the Italian subsidiary of PowerGen, powergenitalia.it ?

(Yes, I know it's an urban legend, but a good one.)

Please don't forget to post the other charges, see my example:

Daily charge 9.83p/kWh
Night charge 9.83p/kWh
0.1564p/day
VAT( taxes) 5 %

1p=£0.01
£1=$1.28

Irthlingborough, UK, eon supplier.

[QUOTE=storm5510;459988]I am curious about the service rates in other parts of the country. So, what is your current kWh rate? I'll start: $0.15 per kWh in Southern Indiana (Duke Energy).[/QUOTE]

Please forgive me for this, but believe it or not the United States of America is not the centre of the Universe.

[QUOTE=chalsall;460011]Please forgive me for this, but believe it or not the United States of America is not the centre of the Universe.[/QUOTE]
Comparison to other countries could provide some useful perspective, so let'er rip! I have a pretty good idea that your rates are high, besides having rotten service and reliability, .

[QUOTE=kladner;460013]Comparison to other countries could provide some useful perspective, so let'er rip! I have a pretty good idea that your rates are high, besides having rotten service and reliability, .[/QUOTE]

In Canada, the cheapest electricity is in Quebec.

Hydro Quebec is the state-owned monopoly, and as the name suggests, nearly all its power comes from hydroelectric sources.

[URL="http://www.hydroquebec.com/residential/customer-space/account-and-billing/understanding-bill/residential-rates/rate-d.html"]Residential rate ("Rate D")[/URL]

First 33 kW-h per day @ 5.82 cents / kW-h (Canadian dollar, * 0.74 = [B]4.31[/B] cents in US$)
Remaining consumption @ 8.92 cents / kW-h (Canadian dollar, * 0.74 = [B]6.60[/B] cents in US$)


Rates to business customers follow different tiers, but the marginal rate is as low as 3.69 Canadian cents per kW-h = [B]2.73[/B] cents in US$ (under [URL="http://www.hydroquebec.com/business/rates-and-billing/rates/electricity-rates-business-customers/rate-m/"]Rate M[/URL]).

Because of these low rates, I was optimistic when Amazon first announced that they were putting data centers in Montreal. But currently Ohio is still cheaper (at spot market prices) for AWS cloud users.

Edit: you need to add 15% tax to the above figures for Quebec.



In other parts of Canada, costs vary widely. Ontario used to have relatively cheap power by Canadian standards, but not anymore.

[URL="http://www.ontario-hydro.com/current-rates"]Ontario electricity rates[/URL] (varies by time of day and by season, from 8.7 cents to 13.2 cents to 18 cents in Canadian dollars, = 6.44 to 9.77 to 13.32 cents in US$)

Edit: you need to add 13% tax to the above figures for Ontario.

[URL="http://www.ontario-hydro.com/electricity-rates-by-province"]Electricity rates by province[/URL]

[URL="https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a"]US electric rates[/URL], average cost in each US state, in US$

[URL="http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/File:Electricity_and_gas_prices,_second_half_of_year,_2013%E2%80%9315_(EUR_per_kWh)_YB16.png"]European electrical rates[/URL], average cost in each country, in euros (linked [URL="http://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php/Energy_price_statistics"]from here[/URL])

Current 1 EUR = 1.11 USD

though I don't run software other than PARI/GP related to this forum here's nova scotia power minimum rate is 10.83 a month in theory. [url]http://www.nspower.ca/en/home/myaccount/billing-and-payments/power-rates.aspx[/url]

[QUOTE=GP2;460020]Ontario used to have relatively cheap power by Canadian standards, but not anymore.

[URL="http://www.ontario-hydro.com/current-rates"]Ontario electricity rates[/URL] (varies by time of day and by season, from 8.7 cents to 13.2 cents to 18 cents in Canadian dollars, = 6.44 to 9.77 to 13.32 cents in US$)

Edit: you need to add 13% tax to the above figures for Ontario.

[URL="http://www.ontario-hydro.com/electricity-rates-by-province"]Electricity rates by province[/URL][/QUOTE]

The Liberal government here effed us. Electricity rates have doubled in the last decade. While they shut down coal power, which is commendable for cleaning up the air (except it still blows in from Michigan and Illinois), they also signed crazy agreements for solar and wind power. The electricity corporation has to buy any power produced an ludicrous rates (over 70¢/kWh in cases) which forces the price of electricity up. At night the base load nuclear and hydro plants produce enough power that the spot price goes negative at times. Night time surplus electricity is sold to neighbouring states.

Anyway, the numbers you have for Ontario are somewhat misleading. In April, I fit entirely into the lower 1000 kWh tier at 10.3¢/kWh nominally, but using 841.86 kWh cost $128.36 or 15.2¢/kWh after delivery charges, fees, taxes, etc. The price small businesses pay is higher.

The devalued Canuck Kopek may make electricity cheaper in USD terms, but it doesn't make up for the cost of importing things that are all priced in USD. I miss the days of five years ago when the Canadian dollar was worth more than that of the US.

[QUOTE=GP2;460021][URL="https://www.eia.gov/electricity/monthly/epm_table_grapher.cfm?t=epmt_5_6_a"]US electric rates[/URL], average cost in each US state, in US$
[/QUOTE]

I see my state, Washington, has the cheapest in the US. All that hydro power. There's a defunct hydro plant just down the road from me. Regulations became too expensive so they shut it down 15 years back, but the man-made lake that fed it is still there, so really, why were the regulations there and why was it so expensive?

I saw Alaska is pretty high, but for a datacenter would you break even by just bringing in cool outside air? :smile: (I'm kind of kidding...I don't really think it'd break even...cooling doesn't seem like it'd be half of the electric consumption of a large datacenter?).

[QUOTE=chalsall;460011]Please forgive me for this, but believe it or not the United States of America is not the centre of the Universe.[/QUOTE]

I never said it was. Forgiven! I should have written, "world." :smile:

Duke Energy charges roughly 7.5% in taxes. I see much higher tax rates in the comments here. I wonder if this could be because of the generation source, like coal, hydro, gas, or nuclear? The majority of Dukes' plants are Hydro; 32 in all. Seven are nuclear. 15 use coal.

There is a big coal plant here on the Ohio River. What it generates goes to Northern Ohio. They wanted the power, but not the local health issues, such as cancer, asthma, and allergies. I won't go into the damage to buildings and automobiles caused by whatever it is they're dumping into the air.

I'm currently on near enough £0.10/unit (US$0.13/kWh), but there is also a fixed daily fee which I can't remember the cost of. The more I use, the cheaper per-kWh it gets.

People at work think I'm insane as my monthly bill is greater than their quarterly bill... :smile:

Explanation of the Danish prices:

[url]http://mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=455736&postcount=155[/url]

[QUOTE=mackerel;460046]I'm currently on near enough £0.10/unit (US$0.13/kWh), but there is also a fixed daily fee which I can't remember the cost of. The more I use, the cheaper per-kWh it gets.

People at work think I'm insane as my monthly bill is greater than their quarterly bill... :smile:[/QUOTE]

Where are you based in UK?

In 2009
[QUOTE=Uncwilly;165664]I am paying the equiv of $0.090/kwh plus an addtional $0.025/kwh to make it all green power, plus sundry fees and texas.[/QUOTE]
I had a larger chart posted at one point.

About $0.2US in this part of the world, more or less, which is bloody expensive considering that we do not have the salaries you have in US, and most of the money goes not into computing, but into cooling, especially in April when the average is around 40°C... I said many times that I totally envy you guys and galz living in the cold climate...

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;460074]I had a larger chart posted at one point.[/QUOTE]

So, I'm currently paying ~$0.26 USD for a kWh of electricity.

And the more I use the more I pay. This is the exact opposite of other regions, where the more they use the less they pay. I would argue that our system make more sense for conservation of consumption.

Pacific Northwest U.S. for the win (Oregon, Washington, Idaho). We put up solar panels which offsets some of it also. Looks like there are a few cheaper places in Europe (Serbia, Kosovo). [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_pricing"]Wikipedia Electrity pricing[/URL] shows some significantly cheaper and more expensive places.

These days I'm leaning a bit toward letting Amazon deal with it all.

[QUOTE=Madpoo;460030]I see my state, Washington, has the cheapest in the US. All that hydro power. (I'm kind of kidding...I don't really think it'd break even...cooling doesn't seem like it'd be half of the electric consumption of a large datacenter?).[/QUOTE]
Actually, the cooling DOES account for roughly 50% since every watt of power consumed by the hardware is directly converted to heat. If you computer consumes 850 watts, you have an 850 watt space heater doing your computations.
In the datacenter at the hospital I just retired from, we spent more time messing with the infrastructure ( cooling, power delivery, UPS, space issues ) than the computing part of it. The breaker panel that fed power to the facility was the biggest I've ever seen; it looked like the one that Laura Dern had to reset in "Jurassic Park"
BTW, here in Central Illinois I pay 10 cents per kWh. A few years ago I was on an hourly
adjustment rate; higher during the day but VERY cheap at night & weekends.
Something happened though and I got out of it when the rates skyrocketed to 20-40 cents per kWh one month. OUCH

[QUOTE=tServo;460298]Actually, the cooling DOES account for roughly 50% since every watt of power consumed by the hardware is directly converted to heat. If you computer consumes 850 watts, you have an 850 watt space heater doing your computations.
In the datacenter at the hospital I just retired from, we spent more time messing with the infrastructure ( cooling, power delivery, UPS, space issues ) than the computing part of it. The breaker panel that fed power to the facility was the biggest I've ever seen; it looked like the one that Laura Dern had to reset in "Jurassic Park"[/QUOTE]

Not all cooling systems are so inefficient. Most heat pumps consume far less energy than the amount of heat they move.

Modern data centers use 90%+ of the power they consume directly for computing. I do agree it's more challenging if it's stuffed into a general purpose building.

[QUOTE=tServo;460298]...it looked like the one that Laura Dern had to reset in "Jurassic Park"
[/QUOTE]

She had to pump it up. I've never actually seen one like that. Cutler-Hammer perhaps.

This is off-topic, sort of: I read where Three Mile Island is going to be shutdown completely in 2019. I suspect rates will change for many on the grid they are feeding into.

[QUOTE=storm5510;460307]I suspect rates will change for many on the grid they are feeding into.[/QUOTE]

In which direction does your suspicion lie?

I am a bit surprised by the per-KWH total. I had the idea that it was around $0.12.
Actually, all the categories added up to $0.09233. This excludes taxes and fixed fees.

[QUOTE=Mark Rose;460302]Modern data centers use 90%+ of the power they consume directly for computing.[/QUOTE]

I think 90% would be considered very good. Google gets [url=https://www.google.com/about/datacenters/efficiency/internal/]89%[/url] (PUE 1.12) in 2017. The Uptime Institute's 2014 Data Center Survey shows an average efficiency of 59% (PUE 1.7); more recent ones don't give PUE numbers, and surveys before 2013 have much lower PUEs. (2013 was 61%, PUE 1.65; 2011 was 53%, PUE 1.89; 2007 was 40%, PUE 2.5.)

[QUOTE=VBCurtis;460309]In which direction does your suspicion lie?[/QUOTE]

Up, even it they (Pennsylvania) have something coming on-line to replace it with.

If the most-expensive source of power goes out of business, the average cost of power (to the utility) decreases. It's not obvious whether this "Average cost" effect is larger or smaller than "decrease in supply -> price goes up!" from elementary microecon.

In regulated-utility areas, the utility is often granted a fixed profit margin on power; if that is true for the area when three mile island runs, rates would go down since the average cost of power goes down; though in the short run the costs to close 3MI may add to rates. So, perhaps a short-run increase to pay for closing the plant, with a long-run decrease.

[QUOTE=storm5510;460307]She had to pump it up. I've never actually seen one like that. Cutler-Hammer perhaps...[/QUOTE]

Now [B]this[/B] is a circuit breaker:
[YOUTUBE]1jPZLgIyj9s[/YOUTUBE]

[QUOTE=Madpoo;460030]I see my state, Washington, has the cheapest in the US. All that
hydro power.[/QUOTE]

That's my state these days as well! And in two counties in particular the electrical rates are exceptionally low. Chelan and Douglas counties have energy charges below $0.025/kwh for residential and commercial use! Douglas county has a more favorable cost structure and the total cost including demand charge and monthly charges is in the $0.025-$0.03/kWh range.

Douglas county's utility is also a pure public cooperative, produces 100% hydropower, and depends on a drainage which is expected to gain both rainfall and snowfall under most plausible climate trajectories over the next 100 years. The power utility also operates a fiber-to-the-home network which provides most of the county's population with cheap gigabit internet!

Couple this with solar subsidies of $0.15 to $0.54/kwh (gross production - no net grid contribution required) and long sunny summer days and the circumstances are pretty optimal for serious-hobby-scale distributed computation. If I ever end up living out there with space, cooling, and power to spare, I'll gladly host forum members' equipment at cost

Just under 14 cents Canadian
 

P.S. I've been trying to determine the Wattage usage of a typical CPU and GPU.

Using a website a fellow forum friend provided I am calculating in the range of 150 to 200 Watts for a fully loaded Sandy or Ivy (i.e. i5-750 or i5-3570K)

And about another 150-250 watts for my current and potential GPUs: GTX-750, GTX-780 ... GTX-1080.

Does this seem about reasonable?

If so then I am paying about $20 per month for my always-on fully-loaded CPU.
And about another $20 or $25 for the GPU.

I have 7 Kaby Lakes using about 420 watts at the wall. That's with an efficient PSU, no OC, no disks, minimal memory, no GPU. So I'd say best case for the CPU is 60 watts, 100 should be easily achievable.

I have 4 Skylakes pulling ~270 watts at the wall. They each have a hard drive now. If I undervolted more, I could probably save another 50 watts, but I've been lazy.

Typical desktop CPUs are around 90 watts, plus about 15 watts for motherboard and memory. You'll be lucky to get an 80% efficient CPU in an off-the-shelf desktop, so multiply that by 1.25.

When I use to calculator and pick a configuration similar to mine I get 'X' Watts for the PC:

Then if I add 1 of each of these 3 GPUs I get an additional: 'Y' watts
GTX-750Ti: 60 ... wow very efficient.
GTX-780-Ti: 254 ... NOT WOW - more than 4 times the power for about 20% speed up.
GTX-1080Ti: 255 ... wow-ish. 4 times the power for about 2.5X speedup over the 750.

Unless there is an error in the calculator it tells me the best bang-for-the-buck is lots of GTX-750 instead of any of these faster, more expensive and power hungry cards.

OR certainly 1080 rather than 780.

The 750 Ti is the first Maxwell card, and is much more power efficient than the other 700 series cards.

[QUOTE=Mark Rose;468387]The 750 Ti is the first Maxwell card, and is much more power efficient than the other 700 series cards.[/QUOTE]

I have multiple ways to measure my usage. I have a wall-socket gadget that measures usage, current wattage, and so on. Since the 12th, I have used 56 kWh for two machines At my rate, that $7.28.

This i7 is connected to a APC backup unit. It's software gives the same info and other things. At idle, this one draws 80W. With Prime95 running, it goes to 170W. Use a GPU application, it jumps to nearly 300W. I found a way to throttle one application that would make the APC sound a warning when it went above 330W. I didn't size the unit properly. It should have been higher capacity.

The APC has a rolling day measurement. As of today, it says this machine has used 48.85 kWh in the past month. I will take a guess and say its 'month' is 30 days. Basically, it measures the most recent period. One can also select Day, Week, or Year, from a drop-down menu.

I have an higher-than-average utility bill coming and I have been trying to isolate the source. It has to be the A/C. It's not these two machines.

I have a GTX-750Ti in my i5 HP workstation. When I put it in, I saw where it used to have a power connector on the back of the circuit board. IMHO, they "hobbled" this one to get the consumption down. That entire system is low power. I suppose this is not a bad thing considering that I am running two.

750Ti is a very power-efficient card, but not good for LL or complicated tasks. If you only intend to do TF, or simple tasks, then more of those are better than one "big iron". Actually, the best way to do simple tasks is to have a lot of small, stupid, power efficient toys (see my idea with putting a lot of Cortex Arm MCUs on a PCB).

OMG
 

What does card 2 have to warrant almost 20X the price:

[url]https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814932002[/url]
GIGABYTE GeForce GTX 750 Ti DirectX 12 GV-N75TD5-2GI Video Card
$129.99

[url]https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=14-487-025[/url]
GIGABYTE GeForce GTX 750 Ti DirectX 12 GV-N75TD5-2GI 2GB 128-Bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 ATX Video Card
$2,354.97

I mean, I see lots of extra "features" but are they really that valuable?
In any case do I correctly assume as far as GPU-TF goes they are close to equal?

Based on the discussions above I am convinced that the most efficient offering is several GTX-750s rather than 1 GTX-1080. For the same price I can get five 750s with a thruput of about double the 1080 and less power consumption.

Not the bottom end card above but maybe this one:
[url]https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814125813[/url]

1st, the 2nd card is EVGA, FWIW.
Here is the EVGA on Amazon:
[url]https://www.amazon.com/EVGA-GeForce-Dual-Link-Graphics-02G-P4-3751-KR/dp/B00IDG3PRI[/url]
Here it is, for $1384.47, in a different NewEgg listing:
[url]https://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=9SIA4UB20U6062[/url]
My guess is that the 20x price is for a bulk pack.
However, note the seller for the high-priced parts: Sold and Shipped by [URL="https://www.newegg.ca/JResale/about"]JResale[/URL] .
I don't know anything about this seller.
Also, here is a Tom's hardware discussion of the different versions of the 750ti.
[url]http://www.tomshardware.com/answers/id-2475628/difference-gtx-750-models.html[/url]

[QUOTE=petrw1;468606]Based on the discussions above I am convinced that the most efficient offering is several GTX-750s rather than 1 GTX-1080. For the same price I can get five 750s with a thruput of about double the 1080 and less power consumption.[/QUOTE]

Don't forget to factor in the cost of the host systems.

[QUOTE=petrw1;468606]
Based on the discussions above I am convinced that the most efficient offering is several GTX-750s rather than 1 GTX-1080. For the same price I can get five 750s with a thruput of about double the 1080 and less power consumption.[/QUOTE]

I have a GTX 750 Ti. On its best day, it might run 170 GHz-d/Day running a TF. Typical is more like 158. A double-check with it would take eight days, or more. A first-time test in the 80 million range, three weeks.

I am using a GTX 480 on a limited basis. It uses too much power for my suit. So, it will go into a box sometime soon. I [U]will[/U] replace it with a GTX 1080. They draw less wattage and have three times the throughput of what I have now. Of course, that may vary on what I run with it. The "Ti" model would increase my consumption, so it's out!

I would prefer to have the capability with a single GPU, and not five. I've never seen a mobo with that many PCie-16 slots. That leave multiple machines. The operating cost would be ghastly, unless one happens to have a small nuclear reactor in their back yard.

[QUOTE=Madpoo]Don't forget to factor in the cost of the host systems. [/QUOTE]

For five "decent" machines with i5 CPU's and all the other stuff. A guess: $3,000 USD. Something to think about!

[QUOTE=petrw1;468606]
I mean, I see lots of extra "features" but are they really that valuable? In any case do I correctly assume as far as GPU-TF goes they are close to equal?[/QUOTE]

The GTX 750 Ti which Newegg is asking over $2K for is the same exact model I have. It cost $120 USD. That is a major error on their part!

[QUOTE=petrw1;468606]What does card 2 have to warrant almost 20X the price:

[URL]https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16814932002[/URL]
GIGABYTE GeForce GTX 750 Ti DirectX 12 GV-N75TD5-2GI Video Card
$129.99

[URL]https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=14-487-025[/URL]
GIGABYTE GeForce GTX 750 Ti DirectX 12 GV-N75TD5-2GI 2GB 128-Bit GDDR5 PCI Express 3.0 x16 ATX Video Card
$2,354.97

[/QUOTE]
Nothing. It is the same card, different cooler, plus a "clever" guy waiting for a stupid customer. The card can't be more expensive than $150 or so, and in fact, it [U]does[/U] have that price on [URL="https://www.evga.com/products/productlist.aspx?type=0&family=GeForce+700+Series+Family&chipset=GTX+750+Ti"]EVGA site[/URL].

[QUOTE=storm5510;468629]For five "decent" machines with i5 CPU's and all the other stuff. A guess: $3,000 USD. Something to think about!
[/QUOTE]
Make that two. Any low-mid range mobo has 2-3 PCIe slots at least 4x or 8x. For 5 cards you need either two mobos like that, or one big iron like the x99e-ws, to which you can mount 7 cards max (but the price for the mobo only is ~$600, to which you have to add for an x99 cpu, it may get even more expensive, but that is another story).

[QUOTE=storm5510;468629]I have a GTX 750 Ti. On its best day, it might run 170 GHz-d/Day running a TF.

I would prefer to have the capability with a single GPU, and not five. I've never seen a mobo with that many PCie-16 slots. That leave multiple machines. The operating cost would be ghastly, unless one happens to have a small nuclear reactor in their back yard.

For five "decent" machines with i5 CPU's and all the other stuff. A guess: $3,000 USD. Something to think about!
[/QUOTE]
For several years now I have had 5 PC's all full time GIMPS.
This "farm" took a few years to grow. Whenever I needed a new main PC (the one the wife uses) I moved the old PC downstairs to the No-Girls-Allowed GIMPS Man-cave.

I have a 4 port KVM switch in the basement so that is my self imposed limit (and to keep my nuclear reactor from overheating).

In a few cases I bought a cheap used PC from the forum or built one with parts to replace a really old virtually useless PC.

In that time I also got a GPU in 2 of them; one (GTX-750) was part of the build and one (GTX-780) was from a member.

I really wanted a GTX-1080 next but now that I realize the relative power consumption of various GPUs I have to rethink my plans. Here are the facts.

1. My GTX-750 died a few weeks ago after limping along with stuck fans for a month.
2. My GTX-780 is using about 4 times the power but only doing about 15% more work.
3. The GTX-1080 appears to use the same power as the GTX-780 but doing about twice the work of it.
4. My main PC is due to be replaced this fall.

So my thinking is:
1. Replace dead GTX-750 with another GTX-750.
2. Replace working GTX-780 with a GTX-750. (It will pay for itself in about 8 months in saved power).
3. Buy a new main PC with a GTX-750 (I might cave in and get the GTX-1080Ti here)
4. Move the current main PC downstairs and retire the oldest.

Looking at this chart:
[url]http://www.mersenne.ca/mfaktc.php?sort=jvr2[/url]

The GTX-750Ti is showing about 325 GHzD/day yet I am getting about 500. Anyone else?

I don't remember the exact model but I know it is an extreme gaming edition; brand name Windforce and it has 3 fans. Based on this it may be over powered and may be using more than the advertised 60 watts in the chart.

It also makes me nervous that if I buy another GTX-750Ti it may be a 325 GhzD/Day (or less) and not a 500 model; though it may use less power.

I also notice that a few others on the chart with low wattage and decent thruput:
GTX-1060M
GTX-965M (Not on NewEgg)
GTX-950

[QUOTE=petrw1;468650]It also makes me nervous that if I buy another GTX-750Ti it may be a 325 GhzD/Day (or less) and not a 500 model; though it may use less power.[/QUOTE]

You're looking at the wrong column. It is showing 139.7 GDay/day. Are you sure you are getting 500 GDay/day from 750? (In fact, even the 780 is showing as 348.9 GDay/day -- maybe a 780 Ti).

You should consider 10xx series for your upgrades.

[QUOTE=petrw1;468650]
I have a 4 port KVM switch in the basement so that is my self imposed limit (and to keep my nuclear reactor from overheating)[/QUOTE]Wimp. Or wuss if you're reading this out in The Colonies.

Around 15 years ago I flood-filled the house with CAT-5. There is a 24-port GBe switch and 24-port patch panel in my study. If there aren't enough physical sockets in any particular room a secondary switch and either of two wireless LANs provide a degraded but adequate service.

There is a 8-port KVM in my study but that's a hysterical arty fact from the days before the cabling was installed. Only one port is still used and that's very much for emergency backup. Everything else is done over ssh.

[QUOTE=xilman;468656]Wimp. Or wuss if you're reading this out in The Colonies.

Around 15 years ago I flood-filled the house with CAT-5. There is a 24-port GBe switch and 24-port patch panel in my study. If there aren't enough physical sockets in any particular room a secondary switch and either of two wireless LANs provide a degraded but adequate service.

There is a 8-port KVM in my study but that's a hysterical arty fact from the days before the cabling was installed. Only one port is still used and that's very much for emergency backup. Everything else is done over ssh.[/QUOTE]

Agreed my KVM is old but it allows me to access all 4 PCs with 1 K and V and M.

So how many computers/GPUs in your house?
And what is your power bill like?

[QUOTE=axn;468654]You're looking at the wrong column. It is showing 139.7 GDay/day. Are you sure you are getting 500 GDay/day from 750? (In fact, even the 780 is showing as 348.9 GDay/day -- maybe a 780 Ti).

You should consider 10xx series for your upgrades.[/QUOTE]

Yes a GTX-750Ti and ... 450 a day TF 73+ bits; over 500 a day TF 67-69 bits.
I'd give the exact specs except it is dead.

My 780Ti is over 500 sometimes close to 600 and the chart has it under 500.

If I limit the search to 750 I see this Oops yes I looked at the wrong column.

[QUOTE=petrw1;468658]Agreed my KVM is old but it allows me to access all 4 PCs with 1 K and V and M.

So how many computers/GPUs in your house?
And what is your power bill like?[/QUOTE]Let's see ...

Five desktop/mini-towers on 24/7. Sundry laptops / tablets / SBCs on a as-required basis. There used to be more but I've cut back recently.

At least 9 months of the year I use electrical fan heaters to keep my house warm. Perhaps 1 or 2 weeks of the year I could use air conditioning but, in practice, I just open a few windows. At least 5 months per annum supplementary heating is provided by a gas boiler (which provides hot water all year round) and a wood-burning stove.

Given that I live in the subarctic, free computation is a valuable by-product of my heating system.

[QUOTE=petrw1;468658]1 K and V and M allows me to access all my computers.[/QUOTE]That is what X11 / VNC / RDP over ssh is for.

I heat my small abode with computers. I also have a summer-long sauna. Today is the first day of wearing a shirt for me. I have some more computers primed for winter. :smile:

[QUOTE=petrw1;468660]Yes a GTX-750Ti and ... 450 a day TF 73+ bits;[/QUOTE]

A putative 150 Gd/d card yielding 450 Gd/d is not possible. The numbers are consistent with an OC'ed 780, though. Regardless, whether you call it 750 or 780 or whatever, it will _not_ be running @ 60w. Expect it to consume between a 780 & 780 Ti (they are both rated at 250, but actuals will be different). TANSTAAFL.

EDIT:- Regardless of this discussion, one technique to pick a good card - Sort the list by Gd/d/W ([url]http://www.mersenne.ca/mfaktc.php?sort=gpw[/url]) and traverse down the list until you find something you're happy with.

[QUOTE=axn;468701]A putative 150 Gd/d card yielding 450 Gd/d is not possible. The numbers are consistent with an OC'ed 780, though. Regardless, whether you call it 750 or 780 or whatever, it will _not_ be running @ 60w. Expect it to consume between a 780 & 780 Ti (they are both rated at 250, but actuals will be different). TANSTAAFL.
.[/QUOTE]

Ok seems my memory is underpowered; my GPU is NOT overpowered.

I do NOT have a GTX-750 and 780
but rather a GTX-970 and 980.

:blush:

15.063 cents per kilowatt hour is a new normal for Nova scotia.

[QUOTE=axn;468701]
EDIT:- Regardless of this discussion, one technique to pick a good card - Sort the list by Gd/d/W ([URL]http://www.mersenne.ca/mfaktc.php?sort=gpw[/URL]) and traverse down the list until you find something you're happy with.[/QUOTE]
I am amazed to see that a GTX1060 outruns a Titan Black for less than half the power. :surprised:

Titans are not good for TF. We always said that using 580/780/Titans for TF is a waste of resources. Where this cards were good (the 580/780) and where Titans are still good, is their DP ratio, so they are very good at LL tests. The Titan is still one of the fastest single-chip card for LL. Other cards like the Z and some AMD have two (or more) chips, which causes them to have a better output, but you can not make a [U]single[/U] LL test faster. For example, say a Black will finish some LL test in 10 days, making 2 tests in 20 days, then a Z will finish those two tests in 14 days, which is much faster, but if you run a single test with Z, it will still take 12-14 days. That is because Z is in fact two underclocked (to keep the temperature and energy consumption in check) Titan chips. And if you add more Titan chips, you may be able to run more tests, but you can not make a single test faster, even if those chips do parts of a single iteration, at the end they must put all the results in agreement, and that is slower that one chip would do the complete iteration by itself.

Back to the original topic of this thread... I have just locked in my energy pricing for the next year as my old plan was coming to and end.

I am on 9.965p/kWh (US$0.13/kWh) with 20.545p/day ($0.27/day) standing charge. Those days are over, no one comes close to that now. Best I found is 11.96p/kWh (US$0.16/kWh) with 23p/day ($0.31/day) standing charge. Old supplier best renewal offer was near enough 15p/kWh so, just no!

Looks like I'm using just over 10MWh/year... somewhat above average! I think there are 4 use cases for higher electricity consumption in households: distributed computing/mining, tropical fish/reptile keeping, and erm... plant growing apparatus. I fit most of those categories...

[QUOTE=mackerel;472948]Back to the original topic of this thread... I have just locked in my energy pricing for the next year as my old plan was coming to and end.

I am on 9.965p/kWh (US$0.13/kWh) with 20.545p/day ($0.27/day) standing charge. Those days are over, no one comes close to that now. Best I found is 11.96p/kWh (US$0.16/kWh) with 23p/day ($0.31/day) standing charge. Old supplier best renewal offer was near enough 15p/kWh so, just no!

Looks like I'm using just over 10MWh/year... somewhat above average! I think there are 4 use cases for higher electricity consumption in households: distributed computing/mining, tropical fish/reptile keeping, and erm... plant growing apparatus. I fit most of those categories...[/QUOTE]

In Washington state, there are several large datacenters in and around Wenatchee to take advantage of the nearby, cheap hydro power.

[URL="https://www.electricitylocal.com/states/washington/wenatchee/"]https://www.electricitylocal.com/states/washington/wenatchee/[/URL]

3.44 US cents / kWh for commercial, or 3.22 US cents/kWh for residential, or a super low 2.18 US cents for industrial. :smile: I think I pay about 10 cents where I live, by way of comparison.

So you might consider if there's a break even or even a cost savings by co-locating in such a place compared to paying your home rate for power.

[QUOTE=science_man_88;472697]15.063 cents per kilowatt hour is a new normal for Nova scotia.[/QUOTE]

which equates to 4.1841666.... cents per megaJoule. I think my annoyance is that if I only had to pay electricity without taxes it would be about $22-24 for 2 months while working, where as with taxes and base charge and taxes on that and yes I get a rebate partially) it's like $45 per 2 months. my hook up was like this:

21.66, base fee ( charges basically to keep the account open/make them money).
22.50, 152 kWh at 14.8 cents ( now it would be 15.063 cents) each
28.00, connection charge
10.82, HST
4.42, rebate

total $78.56

kind of annoying. my lowest electricity use that's easy to see is 141 kWH and the bill was down to $41.82

[QUOTE=Madpoo;473170]So you might consider if there's a break even or even a cost savings by co-locating in such a place compared to paying your home rate for power.[/QUOTE]

Last time I reviewed it, from a pure crunching point of view, I think there are some cloud providers that are about break even with running my own, with the difference the heat goes elsewhere. Right now it is winter and I do run a certain background level as my main home heating. On the flip side, almost everything is off in summer. This assumes all costs with buying and running for several years working life in the TCO.

The other "problem" is I find tinkering with hardware to be one of my interests. Can't do that in the cloud! While it goes against optimising for efficiency, I do find it fun doing a bit of overclocking. Just started doing extreme tuning of ram. For a 4 GHz quad core CPU, I got 4096k FFT benchmarks of 170 iter/s at 2133 ram, to over 253 iter/s with manually tuned 3866. Nice little increase! Also overclocking CPU to 4.7 GHz gets it up to 282 iter/s but I'm really turning up the voltage therefore power output there. It'll be fun to get some fast units out for the next PrimeGrid challenge on bigger LLR based units.

[QUOTE=mackerel;473175]The other "problem" is I find tinkering with hardware to be one of my interests. Can't do that in the cloud![/QUOTE]

Indeed! I've been toying with the idea of buying a quad core PowerPC system just to toy with it. Horribly inefficient and slow, but...

[QUOTE=science_man_88;473174].....

total $78.56

kind of annoying. my lowest electricity use that's easy to see is 141 kWH and the bill was down to $41.82[/QUOTE]
I estimate, very roughly, based on USD 0.12/kWH, that my computer alone, drawing 850 W on the mains, 24/7, costs about USD75 per month. When occasional air conditioning ended was the first time in at least a year that we got under USD100, for a 2 bedroom apartment. We hit over $150 when highs were getting toward 90 F, and lows hung around 80 F.

We modestly A/C about half of the public areas, and Dan has a small unit in his room for hot nights. I prefer open windows and lots of air movement, myself. A big window fan on the back porch, and plenty of windows open in the front and side rooms takes care of a lot of the 'open window' season. Ceiling and other circulating fans rounds things out.

This time of year, the heat output of the computers is a feature, not a bug. :camping:

[QUOTE=kladner;473180]I estimate, very roughly, based on USD 0.12/kWH, that my computer alone, drawing 850 W on the mains, 24/7, costs about USD75 per month... [/QUOTE]

Wow! This is 20 kWh per day, give or take a tiny bit. I worry when mine draws more than 300W from the wall. I have to run Prime95 and a GPU process in tandem to get this high. Just waiting to get that 1080 to cut into the GPU a bit. Sorry for going off-topic!

The current residential rate for Duke Energy in Indiana is 0.128 per kWh. This is a very small reduction compared to last month. It was 0.131. I used 697 kWh during the last billing cycle. Not much A/C or heat during this time.

[QUOTE=storm5510;473193]Wow! This is 20 kWh per day, give or take a tiny bit. I worry when mine draws more than 300W from the wall. I have to run Prime95 and a GPU process in tandem to get this high. Just waiting to get that 1080 to cut into the GPU a bit. Sorry for going off-topic!

The current residential rate for Duke Energy in Indiana is 0.128 per kWh. This is a very small reduction compared to last month. It was 0.131. I used 697 kWh during the last billing cycle. Not much A/C or heat during this time.[/QUOTE]

me and kladner talked in PM to run a similar system my electric bill would be about $236.94 ( cad but even in USD that's about 187) for 2 months of just the computer.

I discovered yesterday that my electricity company has been estimating bills based on 1.8kW constant, while I'm actually using 2.4kW constant. That's with about 140 reasonably modern x86 cores 24/7 (and a GF1080); also a fridge, I suppose.

[QUOTE=storm5510;473193]Wow! This is 20 kWh per day, give or take a tiny bit. I worry when mine draws more than 300W from the wall. I have to run Prime95 and a GPU process in tandem to get this high. Just waiting to get that 1080 to cut into the GPU a bit. Sorry for going off-topic!

The current residential rate for Duke Energy in Indiana is 0.128 per kWh. This is a very small reduction compared to last month. It was 0.131. I used 697 kWh during the last billing cycle. Not much A/C or heat during this time.[/QUOTE]
OMG! To all concerned: The 850 W number was a mental glitch. That was taken by an AMD CPU and 2 GTX 580s, several years back. :davieddy: Apologies. The current draw is 490 W, or 11.75 kWh per day.

I thought I would update this since I started it. The current Duke Energy residential rate for my area is 0.1113 per kWh. In January is was over 0.13.

January was the hard month. I live in the Ohio River Valley. We had more than a few single-digit low temperatures, and two that were minus. This lasted for nearly two weeks. So, that really kept the meter outside busy.

I thought February would be better. It was not as I had hoped. One of the contributing factors is my old GTX 480. Under a load, it draws around 220W. If my calculations are correct, this translates into 5.2 kWh each day, or 158.4 kWh each month. At this pace, it made of 13% of my total usage.

In recent weeks, I have 'feathered' its usage. Perhaps, I will see a drop this month.

[QUOTE=storm5510;481467]I thought I would update this since I started it. The current Duke Energy residential rate for my area is 0.1113 per kWh. In January is was over 0.13.

January was the hard month. I live in the Ohio River Valley. We had more than a few single-digit low temperatures, and two that were minus. This lasted for nearly two weeks. So, that really kept the meter outside busy.

I thought February would be better. It was not as I had hoped. One of the contributing factors is my old GTX 480. Under a load, it draws around 220W. If my calculations are correct, this translates into 5.2 kWh each day, or 158.4 kWh each month. At this pace, it made of 13% of my total usage.

In recent weeks, I have 'feathered' its usage. Perhaps, I will see a drop this month.[/QUOTE]

I get 163.38 kWh per 31 days with 24 hour usage. I also get 5.28 kWh per day though.

Untill 2019-04-01 we have a contract with Eneco for electricity from "Hollandse Wind" (we know this is of course complete marketing B*S*, if the wind is not blowing or at peak demand, we still get power from gas generators etc..) These numbers all include (21% VAT)

[B]To Eneco (supplier)[/B]
Per KWh
€0.06280 (low tariff, daily 21:00-07:00 and weekend)
€0.08069 (high tariff, rest)

Plus a monthly fee:
€3.46 per month

[B]To government (taxes)[/B]
(Energy) Tax per KWh:
€0.126542 energy tax
€0.015972 storage renewable energy tax something

You get a reduction of €373 per year on the Energy Tax if it is a residential connection

[B]To Liander N.V. ([/B][SIZE=3][B][SIZE=3][SIZE=2]Distribution network operator[/SIZE])[/SIZE][/B]
[/SIZE]€0.65146 per day for the connection to the grid

If we only calculate the variable cost per KWh:
20.5 eurocents (daily 21:00-07:00 and weekend)
22.3 eurocents (rest)

We pay more for the taxes (VAT and Energy Tax) than for the electricity+grid connection together... :mike::mike:

Duke Energy has announced a planned service rate increase in my area, (IN). Based on what I have read, Duke will raise the rates 15% in two increments. My current rate is $0.1309 per kWh. With this increase, my rate will be $0.1505 per kWh. This may not sound like much, but it all adds up.

Simply by experimenting, I have learned I can run my GPU at 80% capacity. This drops the throughput by 7%. This also drops the operating temperature by 15%. I see this as a definite plus. I do not see the need to run it flat-out for a few extra percentage points.

:smile:

Good topic -

My current (Summer: June, July, August) rates are:
$0.0779432/kWh (first 450 kWh)
$0.1240339/kWh (next 450 kWh)
$0.1495326/kWh (all additional kWh)

All of that precision is kind of funny, right?

During the rest of the year, the rates are:
$0.0779432/kWh (first 450 kWh)
$0.1070240/kWh (next 450 kWh)
$0.1217077/kWh (all additional kWh)

Our usage peaks in August due to AC cooling, with a smaller peak in January for the heater. My compute draw is approx. 180 kWh/mo and is enough to occasionally bump us into the highest rate tier.

[QUOTE=masser;521602]Good topic -

My current (Summer: June, July, August) rates are:
$0.0779432/kWh (first 450 kWh)
$0.1240339/kWh (next 450 kWh)
$0.1495326/kWh (all additional kWh)

All of that precision is kind of funny, right?

During the rest of the year, the rates are:
$0.0779432/kWh (first 450 kWh)
$0.1070240/kWh (next 450 kWh)
$0.1217077/kWh (all additional kWh)

Our usage peaks in August due to AC cooling, with a smaller peak in January for the heater. My compute draw is approx. 180 kWh/mo and is enough to occasionally bump us into the highest rate tier.[/QUOTE]

When I started this thread, I didn't think it would draw so much interest. Many seem to use it to vent about their service rates, and that is fine with me.

My utility provider doesn't have tiers for consumption, at least, at the commercial level. Industrial may be different.

I have seen my rates drop a little each month since July:

July: $0.1343.
August: $0.1309.
September: $0.1263.
October: $0.1222.

I measure my i7 consumption with a wall gadget. Typical monthly usage is around 55 kWh. Sometimes, I run only [I]Prime95[/I], and other times only a GPU process, like [I]mfaktc[/I]. Rarely do I run them both at the same time. My UPS complains about going above 300W. I have an older HP workstation. It doesn't use enough to keep itself warm.

My overall monthly usage is usually between 900 kWh and 1,100 kWh. Extreme heat in the summer does not have much of an impact. A stretch of bitter cold in the winter, it will go considerably higher.

Salt Lake City is at 0.08/kWH I do believe.

It seems I have been expressing the value of my electrical rates incorrectly. My current rate is 2.13 cents per kWh. In the past, I would have written this as $0.213. This is 21.3 cents. It should be $0.0213. I have allowed this error to dictate things like furnace usage in cold weather, and computer GPU usage year-round. I thought it odd that my monthly statements were never what I thought they would be.

This $0.0213 is a residential rate. Fixed or not, I do not know. Commerical and industrial are in tiers. Below a certain number of kWh, they are charged more. 870 kwh, I believe it is. If they exceed a specific high value, they are charged less for each kWh. If a residential user goes considerably above what the utility thinks they should, then the local constabulary is sent to check for a "grow house."

[QUOTE=storm5510;599456]This $0.0213 is a residential rate. Fixed or not, I do not know.[/QUOTE]

In most places I've lived for residential there's a "baseline" rate, up to a certain amount of kWh/month, when you exceed that you go to a higher rate, not a lower one. Of course, the goal is to encourage people to not waste.

[QUOTE=slandrum;599459]In most places I've lived for residential there's a "baseline" rate, up to a certain amount of kWh/month, when you exceed that you go to a higher rate, not a lower one. Of course, the goal is to encourage people to not waste.[/QUOTE]

And/or [url=https://www.sfgate.com/bayarea/article/PG-E-diverted-safety-money-for-profit-bonuses-2500175.php]to enrich the 'stakeholders' of one's local state-granted utility monopoly[/url] - our baseline rate is nearly 15x the one storm5510 quotes.

(Similar diversions have been occurring for decades w.r.to funds for power line safety in wildfire-prone areas, and the supposed regulator, Cal PUC, is notoriously corrupt, due to added fund misuse by PG&E for bribing the execs of same - so if even *they* say PG&E did something bad, the truth is likely much worse. And if you look at the top campaign contributors for CA governor Gavin Newsom, you get a sense of the likelihood of his doing anything about it aside from speechifying - cf. [url=https://www.abc10.com/article/news/local/abc10-originals/newsom-pge-protection/103-65ca1d41-8efe-45b4-87bc-0cdecc714378]here[/url] and [url=https://www.abc10.com/article/news/investigations/governor-newsom-most-state-lawmakers-took-money-from-convicted-felon-pge/103-2414790f-3a19-4411-92c2-fe23b519d646]here[/url]).

[QUOTE=storm5510;599456]My current rate is 2.13 cents per kWh.[/QUOTE]Please convert it to USD for comparison. If the currency is already USD then that must be the lowest cost power anywhere in the world!

Agree. Sounds like one of those bills that breaks down transmission costs, generation costs, and whatever other category costs, making it a math problem to find what power actually costs.

[QUOTE=VBCurtis;599564]Sounds like one of those bills that breaks down transmission costs, generation costs, and whatever other category costs, making it a math problem to find what power actually costs.[/QUOTE]

I recently lived in an area where your $/kWh rate was straightforward, but your usage-based cost would be added every month to a fixed "base" cost (which was represented as one of these junk charges that you mention). I believe the specific amounts were around 9¢/kWh added to a $30–$35 base (U. S.). There was an option to pay a lower fixed cost, but then you had to accept a peak / off-peak variable rate scheme, where your $/kWh would fluctuate in steps between 5¢–14¢. (I did a bit of hypothetical math on it and determined unsurprisingly that someone with a high usage floor would probably come out behind on this.)

My utility bill has the cost of the juice listed as the electric [i]supply[/i] charge (a bit under 4.6 cents per kwh), and electric [i]delivery[/i] charges. These include a "distribution delivery charge" of 3.2 cents per kwh, and flat rate "customer" and "meter" charges, which raise the delivery charges to more than the juice itself costs.

There are also taxes, fees etc. The total is shocking.

And then there's the natural gas part of the bill... :tantrum:

Rates over here are about 25p/day for transmission and anything between 28p and 35p for a KWh (at the moment). The hike in the cost of electricity and gas is adversely affecting disproportionately millions of poor people who languish (while those in power and the rich seem to be magnamonous). My personal solution is to shut down completely all crunching in warmer months, have only a symbiotic relationship to my prime hunting hobby.

[B][COLOR="DarkRed"]It seems I was incorrect about the cost. Considerably incorrect.[/COLOR] [/B] :blush:

The statewide average here is $0.1285. Individual counties vary. Some of the more populated areas, like Indianapolis (Marion Co.), pay $0.13xx per kWh. Lower population density, $0.11xx per kWh. I do not know what the exact rate is for my county. Somewhere in between. The population here is somewhat more than any of the adjacent counties and a lot less than others farther away. The average monthly charge in the graphic is just about what I pay each month, except for January and February. There are currently 13 "riders" on my bill. Some sneak the cost up a little, and others down. Fuel cost, transmission loss, and so on. Most of Duke's stations are fossil fuel. A few are nuclear. I apologize for the fuss!

I pay 0,32 Euro / kwh in Germany, it is "ökostrom" means generated in Flensburg.
I think finding the next Mp will delight me a lot more.
The search for the next Mp seems to be difficult,
one good reason for a mathematician attitude is patience and endurance.


:hello::kracker: :chappy:

[QUOTE=bhelmes;599730]I pay 0,32 Euro / kwh in Germany, it is "ökostrom" means generated in Flensburg.[/QUOTE]

I envy your provider's ability to interconnect. Here in little Bimshire, we are entirely self-sufficient with regards to electrons.

[QUOTE=bhelmes;599730]I think finding the next Mp will delight me a lot more. The search for the next Mp seems to be difficult, one good reason for a mathematician attitude is patience and endurance.[/QUOTE]

Yup.

For you. Me. And many.

Should be Really Soon Now (RSN)... :wink:

[QUOTE=chalsall;599731]Here in little Bimshire, we are entirely self-sufficient with regards to electrons.[/QUOTE]

I'm sorry everyone reading this...

My bad... I made a mistake. And I misspoke... I would like to apply a "delta" to my above.

Barbados is currently entirely /self-reliant/ for our GTD "power" (read: electrons). We are very far from self-sufficient. At the moment.

We are working to change that. Barbados is very likely to actually go carbon negative by 2030.

It's all a bit complicated. As are, I have found, most things.

[QUOTE=chalsall;599741],,,Barbados is very likely to actually go carbon negative by 2030...[/QUOTE]

Geothermal, solar, wind, or nuclear, or a combination of any. Which do you think it might be?

Personally, I would not want to be confined to an island with a reactor going sideways. I can see them using solar and wind.

[QUOTE=storm5510;599865]... I would not want to be confined to an island with a reactor going sideways.[/QUOTE]Depends upon the size of the island. Greenland is an island.

[QUOTE=retina;599866]Greenland is an island.[/QUOTE]It's hard for me to imagine either commericially justifying a reactor. Greenland at 56,081 is less than one fifth the 287,708 population of Barbados. Although there are some small designs built.
[url]https://www.power-technology.com/features/featurethe-worlds-smallest-nuclear-reactors-4144463/[/url]

[QUOTE=retina;599866]Depends upon the size of the island. Greenland is an island.[/QUOTE]
Some think New Zealand is not an island nation, [URL="https://www.bbc.com/future/article/20210205-the-last-secrets-of-the-worlds-lost-continent"]rather a continent[/URL]. So it would ok for them to have a nuke.

Here in the good ol' USA, nukes on islands have been considered OK for a long time.

Amchitka Island, AK [Long Shot (1965, 80 KT), MILROW (1969, ~1 MT), Cannikin (1971, ~5 MT)] Oh, wait, those were bomb tests.

Three Mile Island, PA. As Meat Loaf sang, two out of three ain't bad.

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;599886]...Three Mile Island, PA. As Meat Loaf sang, two out of three ain't bad.[/QUOTE]

Prairie Island Nuclear Station is on an island in the Mississippi River just southeast of Minneapolis, MN.
I thought there was one on an island in the Missouri River, but after searching Google Earth, I cannot find it now. It was to be decommissioned.

[QUOTE=storm5510;600068]Prairie Island Nuclear Station is on an island in the Mississippi River just southeast of Minneapolis, MN.
I thought there was one on an island in the Missouri River, but after searching Google Earth, I cannot find it now. It was to be decommissioned.[/QUOTE]During the flooding of 2011, the Fort Calhoun Nuclear Power Plant on the Missouri River [i]looked[/i] like it was on an island.

It was permanently shut down October 24, 2016. It is [url=https://world-nuclear-news.org/Articles/EnergySolutions-to-decommission-Fort-Calhoun]being decommissioned[/url].

Attached is an image showing all the [I]riders[/I] on my service account. It seems residential users are on a three-tier billing system. I will hit the highlights here:

Total usage: 1,111 kWh. [I]Fancy that number![/I]
[LIST=1][*]First 300 kWh: $0.148799 per kWh.[*]Up to 700 kWh: $0.108297 per kWh.[*]Above 700 kWh: $0.098147 per kWh.[/LIST]
I would have thought the fuel adjustment would be higher than it is.

[QUOTE=storm5510;600381]Attached is an image showing all the [I]riders[/I] on my service account. It seems residential users are on a three-tier billing system. I will hit the highlights here:

Total usage: 1,111 kWh. [I]Fancy that number![/I]
[LIST=1][*]First 300 kWh: $0.148799 per kWh.[*]Up to 700 kWh: $0.108297 per kWh.[*]Above 700 kWh: $0.098147 per kWh.[/LIST]
I would have thought the fuel adjustment would be higher than it is.[/QUOTE]

At least your kW/hr rates go down as consumption increases. Here in SoCal it is the opposite.

[QUOTE=sdbardwick;600386]At least your kW/hr rates go down as consumption increases. Here in SoCal it is the opposite.[/QUOTE]Am I reading that right? First tier, $0.37 per kwh, second tier $0.47 per kwh (a 27% hike), high usage [i]another[/i] $0.47 per kwh?

According to [url=https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/energy-green/story/2021-03-05/high-usage-charge-on-summer-electricigets-the-heave-ho]this article[/url], San Diego Gas and Electric had to drop its high usage charge last year, per a ruling from the Utilities Commission.

It seems utilities are adopting "time of use" billing...

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;600390]Am I reading that right? First tier, $0.37 per kwh, second tier $0.47 per kwh (a 27% hike), high usage [i]another[/i] $0.47 per kwh?

According to [url=https://www.sandiegouniontribune.com/business/energy-green/story/2021-03-05/high-usage-charge-on-summer-electricigets-the-heave-ho]this article[/url], San Diego Gas and Electric had to drop its high usage charge last year, per a ruling from the Utilities Commission.

It seems utilities are adopting "time of use" billing...[/QUOTE]

Highest rate is $0.47 per kWh. As you found, it went from a 3 tier system to a 2 tier system. IIRC, back when it was a 3 tier system, the highest tier was about 25% higher than the previous tier. The truly annoying part is that most of the cost is distribution, rather than generation. Annoying because you'd think that most of the costs for distribution are fixed and vary little with amount of current. I'd rather you pay for needed capacity upgrades for increased demand when they are incurred, rather than a speculative charge now.

Things may change in the medium term: the public is getting fed up with the continued rate increases due to mismanagement and regulatory capture. The investor-owned utilities might have exceeded the public's tolerance level for greed. I expect there will be ballot initiatives to modify the regulatory scheme, including changing the Public Utilities Commission's commissioners to directly publicly elected rather than appointed by the governor, as well as prohibiting ratepayers from being charged for management mistakes/malfeasance/negligence/criminal actions.

[QUOTE=sdbardwick;600392]you'd think that most of the costs for distribution are fixed and vary little with amount of current.[/QUOTE]Typically end user power consumption is metered at the premises feed. Power lost in distribution before that meter is p=i[SUP]2[/SUP] Rline, higher than linear with end user demand. When demand is high, transmission and distribution lines physically sag because they heat and expand. R is an increasing function of temperature, not constant. Voltage at the meter will droop due to line voltage drop, so some loads will increase time averaged current to meet required power demand, raising line loss higher by increasing current for same power. Now if we could just find those 350+ Kelvin superconductors that cost less than copper...

[QUOTE=sdbardwick;600392]Highest rate is $0.47 per kWh. [/QUOTE]

NorCal is not that much better. I was on the PG&E flat rate with Tier 1 = $0.28, Tier 2 = 0.36, and Tier 3 = $0.44 and starting to hit Tier 3 rates consistently. It was hurting the pocketbook so much I had to switch to a time-of -use plan and turn off a couple computers to bring the cost down. I am still paying $0.31 most of the time and $0.40 between 5-8pm but am looking into using "PauseWhileRunning" in undoc.txt to idle the CPUs during the expensive time period. Anyone know of an easy way to pause mfaktc?

I created a spreadsheet to figure out how much I was spending (see attached picture) it is not a pretty one. Scratch San Diego off my list of places to move to. My brother moved to Texas where his electricity is only $0.12 per kWh but Texas is not big enough for the both of us...

[QUOTE=DrobinsonPE;600430]Texas is not big enough for the both of us...[/QUOTE]:davar55: Maybe you could try OK and feel superior ;)

Two WI datapoints, normalized for a nominally 30 day billing cycle:

[CODE]a) rural electric cooperative (Riverland Electric Cooperative); we'd expect fixed charges to be higher because fewer subscribers per mile of line. Offsetting that somewhat is that farms could be high users, with 3-phase connections. Also profits eventually get distributed back to customers prorated by usage as "capital credits".
1) Metered-KWHR-Usage-independent factors:
Basic service charge $1.18/day x 30 = 35.40
Load management credit 1 water heater = -2.00 (they can drop load at peak times by radio signal)
High pressure sodium security light on their pole = $10.08 (they replace the bulb too)
Nontaxable facility charge $1.47
Metered-KWHR-Usage-independent subtotal $44.95 (cost for zero KWHR/30-days use)

2) Per-metered-KWHR:
Base rate $0.1208
Fuel adjustment -$0.0043
Net $0.1165 / kwhr
(No sales tax during heating season; 5.5% otherwise; 5% state, 0.5% county)
Marginal rate $/wattyear = $.1165/kwhr *365 * 24 / 1000 = $1.02054/watt/year now, 1.07667 later.

b) residential subdivision (Alliant Energy for-profit corporation)
1) Usage-independent factors:
Customer charge $0.4932/day * 30 = $14.80
State-wide low-income assistance fee = $3.15
Usage-independent subtotal $17.95 (before the first electron flows)

2) Per-metered-KWHR:
i) 2021:
Energy charge per metered kwhr: $0.11663
Fuel cost adjustment -$0.002593
Net $0.114037
(No sales tax during heating season; 5.5% otherwise; 5% state, 0.5% county)
Marginal rate $/watt-year =$0.99896... winter, $1.0539... summer.
ii) 2022:
Energy charge per metered kwhr: $0.13091
Fuel cost adjustment $0.
Net $0.13091
That's a [B]14.8%[/B] increase from 2021 to 2022, above double the government's claim of 7% inflation rate.
(No sales tax during heating season; 5.5% otherwise; 5% state, 0.5% county)
Marginal rate $/watt-year =$1.14677... winter, $1.2098... summer.
[/CODE]Looks like I'll be phasing out some lowest-productivity/kwhr systems today.