Redoing factoring work done by unreliable machines
 

I noticed user TJAOI did upload some some factoring work today in the range between 63 and 64 bits. They include factors that were missed earlier when the factoring assignments were handed out by the server or done manually mostly about ten years ago.

A lot of factors were missed by user "1997rj7" who seems to have done a lot of factoring work back then on a unreliable machine.

Can we ( I mean someone ) create a worktodo file that would retest the factoring work by this faulty machine, and maybe other proven faulty machines?

There probably are enough volunteers here who would want to work on such a worktodo file. I do.

My 2 cents ...

If TJAOI is already closing in on 64 bits is it not safe to assume he/she has found all missing factors by any and all unreliable machines up to that level?

Or are you asking about assignments above 64 bits?

Or as long as TJAOI is there do we just let him clean up?

It is about higher bitlevels done by unreliable machines/users, TJAOI will not reach 65 and 66 soon (years). If we find missed factors, we can save some LL.

I am with tha, but we better see the list first. It may not worth a re-check.

Fair enough.

Would reviewing the list from TJAOI be the best way to seeing who missed the most and redo all of theirs above xx bits?Do we let TJAOI have 64 to 65 or 66?

I assume 1999rj7 isn't the only one.

Maybe Madpoo can use a similar magic query he used to get the required DC's.

There are 33075 results between 1999 and 2010 where the user tested to 2^64 or greater.

Can you narrow down which computer or which dates resulted in missed factors?

[QUOTE=Prime95;446186]Can you narrow down which computer or which dates resulted in missed factors?[/QUOTE]

I would be surprised if any new factors, or cheaters, are found.

But whatever rocks your boat. It's your kit / time / energy / money.

Please prove us wrong. Or, alternatively, suggest we are correct.

Unless we know with near certainty that a check from a given machine is wrong, the math to recheck all their results just doesn't add up. Better to do other TF work where you have a ~1/70 chance of saving an LL test vs. 1/700 if 10% of their checks are wrong.

[QUOTE=airsquirrels;446194]Unless we know with near certainty that a check from a given machine is wrong, the math to recheck all their results just doesn't add up. Better to do other TF work where you have a ~1/70 chance of saving an LL test vs. 1/700 if 10% of their checks are wrong.[/QUOTE]

Unless the checks take less than 1/10th the time... Given the choice of 74-75 bit TF work or double-checking 64-67 for someone with a 5% error rate, I'm going to find more factors with the retest per unit time.

[QUOTE=VBCurtis;446198]Unless the checks take less than 1/10th the time... Given the choice of 74-75 bit TF work or double-checking 64-67 for someone with a 5% error rate, I'm going to find more factors with the retest per unit time.[/QUOTE]

That assumes the person you are retesting was cheating.

As I said before, I did that kind of retesting myself. And I never found a cheater.

Put PLEASE! Rerun that test. Spend that money.

We will all be *very* interested if you can find a cheater. I didn't.

[QUOTE=VBCurtis;446198]Unless the checks take less than 1/10th the time... Given the choice of 74-75 bit TF work or double-checking 64-67 for someone with a 5% error rate, I'm going to find more factors with the retest per unit time.[/QUOTE]

My math was based on the idea of doing 64-67 ahead of the wave, all the way up to the 999..M mark. Doing 64-67 for new exponents gets you more exponents cleared than rechecking 64-67 at a 5-10% error rate.

Rechecking where that range is queued by someone else for 74-75 TF or LL/LL-DC, maybe you save some CPU.

I've thought about doing this for some of my own work. I once discovered a card that had a 1/100 error rate on the mfakto self-test, but had been TFing that way for months. I fixed the issue with the card (driver), but at the end of the day I could not justify going back over months of work on another card.

[QUOTE=tha;446154]I noticed user TJAOI did upload some some factoring work today in the range between 63 and 64 bits. They include factors that were missed earlier when the factoring assignments were handed out by the server or done manually mostly about ten years ago.

A lot of factors were missed by user "1997rj7" who [URL="http://foo.hmtl"]seems[/URL] to have done a lot of factoring work back then on a unreliable machine.[/QUOTE]

You mention TF:63-64 factors uploaded by TJAOI today (Nov 1). Below is the list of all such exponents I see currently in the "cleared" listing, all uploaded by TJAOI on Oct 31 at 20:53.

However, this list doesn't match your description. Most of these exponents are > 100M and presumably done by GPU rather than mprime, more recently than ten years ago, and the "culprits" are all sorts of people, not "1997rj7". Can you clarify which exponents are involved? Perhaps they were uploaded a couple of days ago rather than today, and have now disappeared off the "cleared" listing.

[CODE]
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[URL="http://www.mersenne.org/report_exponent/?exp_lo=16556363&full=1"]16556363[/URL] 14981465658515268727
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[/CODE]

[QUOTE=chalsall;446200]
As I said before, I did that kind of retesting myself. And I never found a cheater.

Put PLEASE! Rerun that test. Spend that money.

We will all be *very* interested if you can find a cheater. I didn't.[/QUOTE]

I remember reading an old thread where a particular machine was discovered to have found far fewer factors than expected. People here organized a retesting spree, and found a bunch of missing factors.

The person was not suspected of actually cheating because they had a bunch of other machines which did find the expected number of factors. It was concluded that it must have been bad hardware.

Anyone remember what I'm referring to? I could probably google it if sufficiently motivated...

[QUOTE=GP2;446215]I remember reading an old thread where a particular machine was discovered to have found far fewer factors than expected. People here organized a retesting spree, and found a bunch of missing factors.[/QUOTE]

I don't remember that event.

Might you be able to provide additional specific details?

First of all, I am not looking for cheaters, I only care about error rates. We know that 2-4% of all LL residues are wrong due to overheated CPU's, overtweaked memory speeds etc. etc.

I redid a lot of P-1 work in the range 12M to 13M some time ago and found quite a lot more factors that should have been found through trial factoring or previous P-1 runs than I expected beforehand. Even though of course most factors were found then because of higher B1 and B2 bounds.

I personally attach a little more value to a factor found that was earlier missed than a new factor.

The queries that I would like to see running against the database would sniff out user/machine combinations with the highest ratio of missed factors during trial factoring and/or P-1 runs that should have been found with the settings used, and were later found by other machines through whatever method.

If we have a top ten or twenty list of suspect machines and factoring work they have done that has not been verified, I would like to redo the P-1 work or trial factoring from that list. But if others what to take portions of that list, that fine, provided the machines used are proven reliable.

[QUOTE=chalsall;446216]I don't remember that event.

Might you be able to provide additional specific details?[/QUOTE]

I participated in this event ... I have data that suggests it was January 2015 or so.
I have more data that suggest I found quite a few missed factors. I was testing in the 72-77M Range.

This was for work done by sannerud:
[url]http://www.mersenne.org/report_exponent/?exp_lo=72180077&exp_hi=&full=1[/url]

[QUOTE=petrw1;446221]This was for work done by sannerud:
[url]http://www.mersenne.org/report_exponent/?exp_lo=72180077&exp_hi=&full=1[/url][/QUOTE]

Please bring this data forward.

[QUOTE=chalsall;446222]Please bring this data forward.[/QUOTE]

Sorry mis-worded. Not suggesting I am hiding anything.

I just have an old spreadsheet from that time period where I was using my GPU to re-factor a bunch of exponents from sannerud.com.

I found 23 factors....not sure out of how many but I spend almost 3 days with my GTX-750 running 500 Ghz/day

I thought it was Madpoo again that provided the lists of exponents to re-test but I have yet to find the forum posts.

[QUOTE=petrw1;446224]I just have an old spreadsheet from that time period where I was using my GPU to re-factor a bunch of exponents from sannerud.com.[/QUOTE]

that website and you bring up the user TJAOI thread as the post you mention the site at.

meanwhile just that site without just you brings up this list of threads:

Redoing factoring work done by unreliable machines
OFFICIAL "SERVER PROBLEMS" THREAD
Newer milestone thread
fondled a factor? Turn yourself in to become inanely famous!
User TJAOI
More missed factors
Unexpected Factor
strange factors distribution??

[QUOTE=chalsall;446200]That assumes the person you are retesting was cheating.

As I said before, I did that kind of retesting myself. And I never found a cheater.

Put PLEASE! Rerun that test. Spend that money.

We will all be *very* interested if you can find a cheater. I didn't.[/QUOTE]

No, this addresses the question in this thread- if someone ran a bunch of TF on a known-bad computer, where known missed factors exist (as discovered by TJAOI), then an error rate can be estimated and optimal-recheck-effort can be imputed. I said nothing about cheating, and your fixation on that is your own slant, not mine.

[QUOTE=GP2;446214]You mention TF:63-64 factors uploaded by TJAOI today (Nov 1). Below is the list of all such exponents I see currently in the "cleared" listing, all uploaded by TJAOI on Oct 31 at 20:53.

However, this list doesn't match your description. Most of these exponents are > 100M and presumably done by GPU rather than mprime, more recently than ten years ago, and the "culprits" are all sorts of people, not "1997rj7". Can you clarify which exponents are involved? Perhaps they were uploaded a couple of days ago rather than today, and have now disappeared off the "cleared" listing.
[/QUOTE]

The three exponents in the 66M range were done by one and the same user. Other users have multiple hits too.

Once again, I only care about identifying unreliable machines that have added multiple results to the database that were not verified one way or the other.

[QUOTE=VBCurtis;446227]No, this addresses the question in this thread- if someone ran a bunch of TF on a known-bad computer, where known missed factors exist (as discovered by TJAOI), then an error rate can be estimated and optimal-recheck-effort can be imputed. I said nothing about cheating, and your fixation on that is your own slant, not mine.[/QUOTE]


Seems like chalsall is having a bad week this week, see the completely unnecessary and over the top response [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=446081&postcount=2673"]here...[/URL]


..the evidence was provided and no apology was forthcoming :no:

[QUOTE=chalsall;446216]I don't remember that event.

Might you be able to provide additional specific details?[/QUOTE]

It was in the middle of the "User TJAOI" thread, starting around [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=19014&page=14"]page 14[/URL], and continuing for multiple pages. A bunch of people rechecked exponents by user sannerud.com

PS,

In the [URL="http://mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=446214&postcount=11"]list of exponents I posted above[/URL], some TF:63-64 factors in the 500M range were missed by some guy named "For Research", for instance 532139263 and 532268537 and others. Looks like we found a cheater! :shock::surprised::smile::hello:

We had all these discussions before, with numbers and calculus, when it worth and not to redo the testing. That is why I said "let's see the list". No need to argue. I too was one who rechecked sanerud's and other lists in the past, never found a missed factor, or a cheater. I am not spiding the server, but many people here do. Make a list. I will participate on re-TF if I think it worth.

The participant 1997rj7 has been spotted before as one returning higher percentage of missed factors:
[URL]http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?p=400546#post400546[/URL]
At the time we spend most of the energy on sannerud.com. There was also an effort on KYOJI_KAMEI:
[URL]http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?p=393459#post393459[/URL]

However, as a side project I had fetched work done by "1997rj7" and re-TFed his results. I spend less than a ThzDay in that, but found 3 missed factors if I remember correctly. I believe others checked some of the 1997rj7 work too. It is not that problematic to re-TF his early work. Nowadays, the server accepts the duplicated TF checks (without a credit), which will eliminate any further triple checking.

sannerud.com, KYOJI_KAMEI and 1997rj7 are known to have missed many factors. They are not cheaters, but the bad machine they were using makes their whole work less trustful.