The US House of Representatives originally passed the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2021, 335-78. After the US Senate passed the bill 84-13, the president vetoed it.

The House has now voted to override the president's veto, 322-87. That's four fewer total votes, 13 fewer yeas, and 9 more nays than the vote for initial passage. Still comfortably over a 2/3 majority of those present.

Now the bill goes to the Senate, which will vote tomorrow. Again, it takes more than 2/3 of those present voting in favor, to override the veto. [i]Some[/i] R's who voted to pass the bill will almost certainly now vote to sustain the veto. I would be [i]very[/i] surprised if the veto is actually sustained, but it [i]is[/i] possible.

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;567579]
That's ... 9 more nays than the vote for initial passage. [/QUOTE]

Profiles in cowardice.

[QUOTE=masser;567655][QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;567579]
That's ... 9 more nays than the vote for initial passage. [/QUOTE]Profiles in cowardice.[/QUOTE]
Oh, yeah.

And there are hidden depths of poltroonery. When the leadership wants to insure a specific outcome (in this case a veto override) and has a reliable vote count before the matter comes to the floor, and the margin is big enough, they can count how many members who voted Yea on passage they can allow to vote Nay on overriding the veto, in the name of political expediency.

It's worse than I thought:

[URL="https://twitter.com/LeoShane/status/1343727198075838464"]26 Republicans switched their votes.[/URL]

[URL="https://twitter.com/LeoShane/status/1343727360898699265"]16 Democrats switched their votes.[/URL]

Spinelessness writ large.

[QUOTE=masser;567658]It's worse than I thought:

[URL="https://twitter.com/LeoShane/status/1343727198075838464"]26 Republicans switched their votes.[/URL]

[URL="https://twitter.com/LeoShane/status/1343727360898699265"]16 Democrats switched their votes.[/URL]

Spinelessness writ large.[/QUOTE]
I would imagine most of the R switches were from Yeas on passage to Nays on overriding the veto. And most of the D switches were from voting Nay on passage to voting Yea on overriding the veto.

With the R's, IMO fear of crossing, or being seen to be crossing the Lame-Duck-in-Chief reigns supreme. With the D's, IMO the desire to stick it to the Lame-Duck-in-Chief reigns supreme.

In an unusual New Year's Day session, the US Senate has [url=https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-donald-trump-defense-policy-bills-85656704ad9ae1f9cf202ee76d7a14fd]voted 81-13 to override the president's veto[/url] of the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal 2021. The bill now becomes law.

This is the only override of a president's veto by the 116[sup]th[/sup] Congress. (There were none during the 115[sup]th[/sup] Congress. The 117[sup]th[/sup] Congress begins on Monday, January 3.)

One of the lunatic attempts to keep the incumbent in office is a filing in US District Court for the Eastern District of Texas, Tyler division, Gohmert v. Pence, which asks the Court to declare sections of the 1887 Electoral Count Act unconstitutional, and to grant the VP exclusive authority to decide which electoral votes to count. A Defendant's Response on VP Pence's behalf has been filed [url=https://apnews.com/article/election-2020-joe-biden-donald-trump-courts-lawsuits-521b8c82eca4ff5f565b3ed6514a9898]seeking to have the case dismissed[/url]. The US Department of Justice, in the persons of some of its higher-ups, is acting as Attorney for the Defendant. The well-written brief claims that plaintiffs are suing the wrong person, and indicates a number of legal reasons the case should be dismissed without further ado.

New rants of the mad man:
[URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/audio-trumps-full-jan-2-call-with-ga-secretary-of-state/2021/01/03/3f9426f4-7937-4718-8a8e-9d6052001991_video.html"]https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/audio-trumps-full-jan-2-call-with-ga-secretary-of-state/2021/01/03/3f9426f4-7937-4718-8a8e-9d6052001991_video.html [/URL]
"In a one-hour phone call on Saturday, Jan. 2, 2021 with Georgia election officials, President Trump insisted he won the state and threatened vague legal consequences if the officials did not act."

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;568241]New rants of the mad man:
[URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/audio-trumps-full-jan-2-call-with-ga-secretary-of-state/2021/01/03/3f9426f4-7937-4718-8a8e-9d6052001991_video.html"]https://www.washingtonpost.com/video/politics/audio-trumps-full-jan-2-call-with-ga-secretary-of-state/2021/01/03/3f9426f4-7937-4718-8a8e-9d6052001991_video.html [/URL]
"In a one-hour phone call on Saturday, Jan. 2, 2021 with Georgia election officials, President Trump insisted he won the state and threatened vague legal consequences if the officials did not act."[/QUOTE]In between spouting various fairy tales about election fraud, he got off some good lines.[quote]<snip>
So look. All I want to do is this. I just want to find 11,780 votes, which is one more than we have because we won the state.
<snip>
So what are we going to do here folks? I only need 11,000 votes. Fellas, I need 11,000 votes. Give me a break.
<snip>
And everyone's going to look very good if the truth comes out. It's OK. It takes a little while but let the truth come out. And the real truth is I won by 400,000 votes. At least. That's the real truth.
<snip>[/quote]For some reason, the following anecdote comes to mind:

Once upon a time, long long ago, I was reading a book about sourdough, and encountered a term for sourdough "starter" that electified me. That word was [i]barm[/i]. My mind practically shouted, "So, [b]that's[/b] where the word [i]barmy[/i] comes from!"

The horse is already out of the barn. It is in the next state, has been put down, and is about to be turned into glue. Yet, he is worried about the door to the barn and is :deadhorse:

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;568243]encountered a term [...] that electified [sic!] me[/QUOTE]
i.e. related to elections, haha

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;568249]The horse is already out of the barn. It is in the next state, has been put down, and is about to be turned into glue. Yet, he is worried about the door to the barn and is :deadhorse:[/QUOTE]I think Trump is going for the insanity plea at his upcoming trials. All this ridiculous current refusal to accept reality lays down the background work.

[QUOTE=LaurV;568276][QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;568243]encountered a term [...] that electified [sic!] me[/QUOTE]i.e. related to elections, haha[/QUOTE]:tu: That's one typo I'm leaving uncorrected!

:missingteeth: :missingteeth: :missingteeth: :missingteeth: :missingteeth: :missingteeth:

[QUOTE=retina;568277]I think Trump is going for the insanity plea at his upcoming trials. All this ridiculous current refusal to accept reality lays down the background work.[/QUOTE]

I'm waiting for Trump to resign (or for his own party to remove him from office) so that Pence can pardon him before inauguration day. =

[url]https://www.thedailybeast.com/trump-campaign-adviser-jason-miller-flips-out-when-jake-tapper-calls-him-out-over-child-support[/url]

[QUOTE]Jason Miller doesn’t like being called out for allegedly being a deadbeat dad. The longtime Trump adviser and chief campaign strategist tried to run interference for his boss on Sunday, claiming that [URL="https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-raffensperger-call-georgia-vote/2021/01/03/d45acb92-4dc4-11eb-bda4-615aaefd0555_story.html"][I]The Washington Post [/I]article on President Trump’s now-infamous phone call[/URL]—in which he asked Georgia’s top elections official to “find” votes to win him the state—was deceptively edited. In response, CNN anchor Jake Tapper tweeted out, “The full call is here and [U]while I have your attention pay your child support.[/U]” [/QUOTE]
:bow: :missingteeth:

Trump: The All-Time Loser
 

I have always loved this song, It seems especially appropriate just now.
[YOUTUBE]i19d1QnstsA[/YOUTUBE] If you are unfamiliar with the song, be aware that there is a long intro with a great piano-guitar duet. The words are devastating.
[QUOTE]In the shuffling madness
Of the locomotive breath,
Runs the all-time loser,
Headlong to his death
He feels the piston scraping
Steam breaking on his brow
Old Charlie stole the handle and
The train it won't stop going
No way to slow down

He sees his children jumping off
At stations, one by one
His woman and his best friend
In bed and having fun
He's crawling down the corridor
On his hands and knees
Old Charlie stole the handle and
The train it won't stop going
No way to slow down

He hears the silence howling
Catches angels as they fall
And the all-time winner
Has got him by the balls
He picks up Gideons Bible
Open at page one
I think God He stole the handle and
The train won't stop going
No way to slow down
No way to slow down
No way to slow down
No way to slow down
No way to slow down
No way to slow down
No way to slow down
No way to slow down
No way to slow down[/QUOTE]

Trump has what he wanted, protesters attacking the US Capitol building to prevent certification of Biden. At least Fox News is condemning it, but Trump is not. I'm not certain where Newsmax and OAN stand because I won't watch them.

[QUOTE=rogue;568590]Trump has what he wanted, protesters attacking the US Capitol building to prevent certification of Biden. At least Fox News is condemning it, but Trump is not. I'm not certain where Newsmax and OAN stand because I won't watch them.[/QUOTE]
It is utterly sickening.

Interesting times.

The law quoted at the end of [url=https://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=568098&postcount=655]this post[/url] seems to fit. If they can be charged with treason, so much the better. I don't know why the authorities weren't better prepared. It isn't like they didn't know Der Führer, as well as his brownshirts, were spoiling for trouble.

I am disgusted by the R's who, suddenly, after four years of enabling, assisting, and acquiescing to a malignant narcissist, suddenly are shocked - [i]shocked![/i] at what this had led to.

BTW, although Faux News stoutly declared the activity of the brownshirts "peaceful," it seems the DC police have declared it a riot. See [url=https://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=568102&postcount=656]this post[/url].

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;568599]The law quoted at the end of [url=https://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=568098&postcount=655]this post[/url] seems to fit. If they can be charged with treason, so much the better. I don't know why the authorities weren't better prepared. It isn't like they didn't know Der Führer, as well as his brownshirts, were spoiling for trouble.

I am disgusted by the R's who, suddenly, after four years of enabling, assisting, and acquiescing to a malignant narcissist, suddenly are shocked - [i]shocked![/i] at what this had led to.

BTW, although Faux News stoutly declared the activity of the brownshirts "peaceful," it seems the DC police have declared it a riot. See [url=https://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=568102&postcount=656]this post[/url].[/QUOTE]

Many will argue that this is no different than the BLM protests. I would argue that the BLM protests are based upon racism (which has a lot of factual support) while these are based upon misinformation and fear of things that have not happened.

[QUOTE=rogue;568600]Many will argue that this is no different than the BLM protests. I would argue that the BLM protests are based upon racism (which has a lot of factual support) while these are based upon misinformation and fear of things that have not happened.[/QUOTE]This rioting was aimed at impeding the functioning of government - specifically, preventing Congress from carrying out its official function of counting the electoral votes in a presidential election. That's where sedition, and possibly treason charges come in.

It is fortunate indeed that floor staff got the boxes of electoral [strike]votes[/strike] certificates out of the chambers. The mob would surely have destroyed them.

Plus, of course, the riot was an attack on the US Capitol.

[url=https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/congress-electoral-college-vote-count-2021/h_3fb32b03709205502fa374d42ba0dcf0]Woman shot inside Capitol pronounced dead, DC police confirm[/url][quote]The woman who was shot inside US Capitol during riots Wednesday afternoon was pronounced dead at an area hospital, a spokesperson with the Metropolitan Police Department confirmed to CNN.

"Yes, the adult female that was shot inside of the Capitol was pronounced at an area hospital," said spokesperson Dustin Sternbeck with the Metropolitan Police Department
Sternbeck said, "additional details will be forthcoming as this remains an active MPD investigation."

[b][size=4]Man in critical condition after climbing and falling from scaffolding at US Capitol[/size][/b]

A 24-year-old male who was climbing the scaffolding on the west front of the US Capitol building fell more than 30 feet.

He is being taken to the hospital in critical condition, according to a source familiar.[/quote]

Is the President, as Commander-in-Chief of the Armed Forces, subject to the Uniform Code of Military Justice? I don't know. I sort of doubt it. But just in case (my emphasis)...

[quote]U.S. Code Title 10.
ARMED FORCES
Subtitle A. General Military Law
Part II. PERSONNEL
Chapter 47. UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE
Subchapter X. PUNITIVE ARTICLES
Section 894.
Art. 94. Mutiny or sedition

10 U.S. Code § 894 - Art. 94. Mutiny or sedition

(a) Any person subject to this chapter who—[indent](1) with intent to usurp or override lawful military authority, refuses, in concert with any other person, to obey orders or otherwise do his duty or creates any violence or disturbance is guilty of mutiny;

[b](2) with intent to cause the overthrow or destruction of lawful civil authority, creates, in concert with any other person, revolt, violence, or other disturbance against that authority is guilty of sedition;[/b]

(3) fails to do his utmost to prevent and suppress a mutiny or sedition being committed in his presence, or fails to take all reasonable means to inform his superior commissioned officer or commanding officer of a mutiny or sedition which he knows or has reason to believe is taking place, is guilty of a failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition.[/indent]
(b) A person who is found guilty of attempted mutiny, mutiny, sedition, or failure to suppress or report a mutiny or sedition [b]shall be punished by [i]death[/i][/b] or such other punishment as a court-martial may direct.[/quote]

Lets see where this goes. Have no popcorn here, but Coffee shall do.

its 5 AM here :D

[QUOTE=rogue;568590]Trump has what he wanted, protesters attacking the US Capitol building to prevent certification of Biden. At least Fox News is condemning it, but Trump is not.[/QUOTE]
Deja vu. I guess Americans found their own [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ion_Iliescu#Mineriads"]iliescu[/URL]...
Hopefully for you and for your democracy, your mad smiling clown will not manage to avoid the most deserved path, like our did, and he'll be sent where his place is: to the jail.

[QUOTE=MisterBitcoin;568615]Lets see where this goes. Have no popcorn here, but Coffee shall do.

its 5 AM here :D[/QUOTE]
As of right now, Biden only has 244 votes counted by Congress, which is short of the 270 to win.

Since it's currently over an hour past midnight on the U.S. east coast, I wonder whether this is the first time since 1877 that the president-elect hasn't been officially confirmed by Congress on January 6:

[url]https://tylerpaper.com/ap/politics/republicans-in-congress-to-challenge-bidens-win-wednesday-what-to-expect/article_4c1b9cef-35fc-5bf9-aea1-0208207479b3.html[/url]

Demockracy?

The final count is in:
Biden won
Go figure, who saw that coming?

Reports suggest that Pence called in the National Guard.

Evidence of a de facto 25th Amendment?

[QUOTE=xilman;568632]Reports suggest that Pence called in the National Guard.

Evidence of a de facto 25th Amendment?[/QUOTE]Twenty-Fifth Amendment, Section 4:
[quote]Whenever the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive departments or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall immediately assume the powers and duties of the office as Acting President.

Thereafter, when the President transmits to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives his written declaration that no inability exists, he shall resume the powers and duties of his office unless the Vice President and a majority of either the principal officers of the executive department or of such other body as Congress may by law provide, transmit within four days to the President pro tempore of the Senate and the Speaker of the House of Representatives their written declaration that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. Thereupon Congress shall decide the issue, assembling within forty-eight hours for that purpose if not in session. If the Congress, within twenty-one days after receipt of the latter written declaration, or, if Congress is not in session, within twenty-one days after Congress is required to assemble, determines by two-thirds vote of both Houses that the President is unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office, the Vice President shall continue to discharge the same as Acting President; otherwise, the President shall resume the powers and duties of his office.[/quote]The only legislation I am aware of that has even been proposed (and which AFAIK did not become law) was proposed by US Representative Jamie Raskin (D-MD, 8th District), and would have created a "Commission on Presidential Capacity..." It was introduced in the House in 2017, died, and was re-introduced late in 2020. The 2020 version would not have applied to the current [size=1][color=orange]president[/color][/size].

From my reading of the Amendment, it looks like the VP and a majority of Cabinet Secretaries (some of whom are "Acting," of which some are cult followers of the [size=1][color=orange]president[/color][/size]) could (in theory) declare in writing that the [size=1][color=orange]president[/color][/size] was unable to discharge the powers and duties of his office. In the present situation, they could, if necessary, renew their declaration, and Congress could simply run out the clock.

My guess is, ain't gonna happen.

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;568648]Twenty-Fifth Amendment, Section 4:
...[/QUOTE]

Which is why I used the term [i]de facto[/i] rather than [i]de jure[/i].

Perhaps some of the grown-ups decided to take action.

[QUOTE=xilman;568658][QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;568648]Twenty-Fifth Amendment, Section 4:
...[/QUOTE]Which is why I used the term [i]de facto[/i] rather than [i]de jure[/i].

Perhaps some of the grown-ups decided to take action.[/QUOTE]Article Six, paragraph 2 (my emphasis):[quote][b]This Constitution[/b], and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Laws of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.[/quote]"The supreme Law of the Land" is as [i]de jure[/i] as it gets.

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;568662]Article Six, paragraph 2 (my emphasis):"The supreme Law of the Land" is as [i]de jure[/i] as it gets.[/QUOTE]You are still not getting it.

The law is as you quote it. It is quite clear that Trump has not been removed from office [B]by law[/B]. That is what [I]de jure[/I] means.

If, on the other hand, he has been removed from official power [B]in practice[/B]; that is what is meant by [I]de facto[/I].

[QUOTE=xilman;568676]You are still not getting it.

The law is as you quote it. It is quite clear that Trump has not been removed from office [B]by law[/B]. That is what [I]de jure[/I] means.

If, on the other hand, he has been removed from official power [B]in practice[/B]; that is what is meant by [I]de facto[/I].[/QUOTE]That's not how [i]de facto[/i] is generally used here in the good ol' USA. Here it usually means "according to custom or practice, but not sanctioned by law." Racial segregation in the North was often referred to as "de facto segregation," as opposed to "[i]de jure[/i] segregation" in the South.

If, say, a pistol were mysteriously to have appeared under the president's pillow at bed time, and he was found dead the next morning of an "accidental" gunshot wound, [i]that[/i] would be a [i]de facto[/i] removal from office.

It would have the advantage of eliminating the possibility of his holding any office or position of trust anywhere, ever again.

Assuming he outlives his term in office, he could be charged with any number of things in connection with the riot in the US Capitol. One possibly-applicable statute that has a special appeal is the following (my emphasis):

[quote]18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection

Whoever incites, sets on foot, assists, or engages in any rebellion or insurrection against the authority of the United States or the laws thereof, or gives aid or comfort thereto, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than ten years, or both; [b]and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.[/b]

(June 25, 1948, ch. 645, 62 Stat. 808; Pub. L. 103–322, title XXXIII, § 330016(1)(L), Sept. 13, 1994, 108 Stat. 2147.)[/quote]

A statement made earlier today by FBI Director Christopher Wray:

[QUOTE]The violence and destruction of property at the U.S. Capitol building yesterday showed a blatant and appalling disregard for our institutions of government and the orderly administration of the democratic process. As we’ve said consistently, we do not tolerate violent agitators and extremists who use the guise of First Amendment-protected activity to incite violence and wreak havoc. Such behavior betrays the values of our democracy. Make no mistake: With our partners, we will hold accountable those who participated in yesterday’s siege of the Capitol.

Let me assure the American people the FBI has deployed our full investigative resources and is working closely with our federal, state, and local partners to aggressively pursue those involved in criminal activity during the events of January 6. Our agents and analysts have been hard at work through the night gathering evidence, sharing intelligence, and working with federal prosecutors to bring charges. Members of the public can help by providing tips, information, and videos of illegal activity at [URL="https://l.facebook.com/l.php?u=https%3A%2F%2Ffbi.gov%2FUSCapitol%3Ffbclid%3DIwAR1W4ZEASfwrQom-eRUaUFART-PjV40ZYw7sDbFMgiHc6JPF8dggjukD6IM&h=AT3uhfOS88c4XnynMUSycm9vCDTA-ISwXS1kzfQCkOkrDI-MfIZ4TSwyF9yDUlvCcEoKXbuALQKnCUHK5GcltjSQX5CFRI79D7kbMoWOK_G4oIGL5uY0XTJ1FRR-l13WK2pU&__tn__=-UK-R&c[0]=AT251_ONVjUmIjbmbwj7TRWmpQu6Pulfpx3nOT5fxleslbYp1hrII-OtIZ1J4ToBfvzEWezqoVF6c15si6no-FjE4j-yQ19Mj1vfvDVyAWOeFSdNrb_SqVf5hvouERbAfbC2oreewNdM9GYU5e3AEbRYK5wdjVqmmM9uPf-8l362gg_6"]fbi.gov/USCapitol[/URL]. We are determined to find those responsible and ensure justice is served.
[/QUOTE]National and local media are claiming Trump himself is responsible for this. I am wondering if this is fact, or just an assumption on their part. Either way, the coming days will be interesting, and maybe disturbing. I still think Trump will try to slip away in the dark sometime soon, perhaps to the banana republics, as Bush 43 called them.

[QUOTE=storm5510;568691]<snip>
National and local media are claiming Trump himself is responsible for this. I am wondering if this is fact, or just an assumption on their part. Either way, the coming days will be interesting, and maybe disturbing. I still think Trump will try to slip away in the dark sometime soon, perhaps to the banana republics, as Bush 43 called them.[/QUOTE]I think there's a good case that he incited the riot. I've read that federal prosecutors are also seriously considering sedition and seditious conspiracy charges. These might apply to the Inciter-in-Chief. The Feds had previously considered such charges WRT the "Black Lives Matter" protests, but that was a stretch.

This riot was an invasion of the US Capitol Building that interrupted a joint session of Congress assembled to officially record the results of a presidential election. And it seems clear the aim was to prevent their carrying out that official duty. The prosecutors seem to be in a "throw the book at them" frame of mind, and the circumstances will make it a much bigger book.

Unfortunately I did not see any mention by the prosecutors of insurrection charges, which I would favor in the president's case for the reasons I indicated just a couple posts back. And I have seen the term being used to describe the riot.

If any of the rioters were armed, they could conceivably be charged with treason against the United States, but I kind of doubt that will happen.

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;568684]If, say, a pistol were mysteriously to have appeared under the president's pillow at bed time, and he was found dead the next morning of an "accidental" gunshot wound[/QUOTE]
Bad idea! That would be a very bad scenario. Bad Dr.S. to suggest it. Bad!
It would mean he gets out too easy.

Because:

[QUOTE=storm5510;568691]National and local media are claiming Trump himself is responsible for this.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;568697]I think there's a good case that he incited the riot.[/QUOTE]
This!

Picked this up from the cervens forum. Here to help.

[QUOTE=LaurV;568703][QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;568684]If, say, a pistol were mysteriously to have appeared under the president's pillow at bed time, and he was found dead the next morning of an "accidental" gunshot wound[/QUOTE]Bad idea! That would be a very bad scenario. Bad Dr.S. to suggest it. Bad!
It would mean he gets out too easy.[/QUOTE]I can't claim (dis)credit for the idea. See [url=https://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=563685&postcount=496]this post[/url] from November 18, 2020. I agree with the assessment therein that it is unlikely to happen.

I agree he would get out too easy. But at least he would be out. All the [i]way[/i] out.

The FBI is posting a lot of photos of "persons-of-interest" on the Great S***hole, otherwise known as Facebook. My only use for it is to keep up with relatives and past schoolmates. The FBI's page is one of a scant few I follow. For the most part, they show photos of artifacts they have collected over the decades. I doubt they will be putting up any photos of these items for quite a while.

Local and national media are using the word "sedition" a lot. It is defined as "conduct or speech inciting people to rebel against the authority of a state or monarch." In this case, I believe the words "or monarch" can be removed. Many senators and former senior officials are calling for Trump to resign. Others are calling for the application of The 25th Amendment. Pence would have to do this, if I understand it correctly. There is also talk of impeachment. 12 days does not seem long enough for this to happen.

Trump apparently wanted to become the next strongman following the likes of Qaddafi, Noriega, Hussein, or Stalin. The system we have followed for over 200 years does not allow this. Fortunately, the original authors of The Constitution wrote their document in such a way that something of this nature would be covered, even though they would never have conceived of such a thing happening.

Trump said he is not going to the Inauguration; did that ever happen in History?

[QUOTE=MisterBitcoin;568753]Trump said he is not going to the Inauguration; did that ever happen in History?[/QUOTE]Yes, several times.

Not since the 19th century though.

[QUOTE=MisterBitcoin;568753]Trump said he is not going to the Inauguration; did that ever happen in History?[/QUOTE]Three in the Nineteenth Century purposely did did not attend their successors' first inaugural. They were John Adams, John Quincy Adams, and Andrew Johnson (Thomas Jefferson in 1801, Andrew Jackson in 1829, and Ulysses Grant in 1869, respectively.)

There was one example in the Twentieth Century, due to unusual circumstances: On August 9, 1974 Richard Nixon's resignation became effective. He left in disgrace, and departed from the White House before Gerald Ford took the oath of office.

In the present instance, the outgoing cult leader is also leaving in disgrace.

[b]EDIT:[/b] It seems that many cult followers were intent on finding Mike Pence and executing him as a "traitor" because they had learned he was not going to illegally try to change the outcome of the election. There's video on line of rioters chanting, "Hang Mike Pence!"

While scanning the news, I couldn't help but hear (and not just once) the painfully familiar phrase for the ex-USSR folks: "[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cult_of_personality"]Cult of personality[/URL]". Which I find quite accurate, and it is a shame that people don't know history very well so it is not a very broad discourse.

Mind you, in the USSR, religion was suppressed so in a way it was a replacement mechanism (en masse, and in a larger context, the facade of communism was a faux religion cult). But in the U.S.of A? A huge portion of the base of trumpism are deeply religious. Don't they realize that they sin in idolatry? They don't think?

Trump's followers have been convinced of the following:
[LIST][*]that if you don't love America as much as Trump then you are not American enough[*]that Democrats have turned our country in to a s***hole[*]that all immigration (legal and not) takes jobs away from Americans[*]that most illegal immigrants are criminals[*]that Democrats do not support gun ownership[*]that Democrats do not support freedom of religion[*]that Democrats do not support freedom of speech[*]that Democrats are socialist/marxist/communist[*]that Democrats do not support the military and police[*]that all taxes are evil[*]that all attempts to address environmental concerns are an overreach of government[*]that all entitlements need to go away (note that Social Security and Medicare are not entitlements in their mind)[*]that media to the left of Fox News is "fake news" and not to be trusted[*]that the national flag is a sacred object deserving of devotion that borders on religious[/LIST]
These are all extremists positions, but shared by a large percentage of Trump supporters.

I was actually surprised by the lack of armed protesters on Wednesday. They have been carrying firearms everywhere else. I'm not certain why they were not carrying them during the protest.

I will answer some of these with some simple replies.
[QUOTE=rogue;568766][LIST][*]that all immigration (legal and not) takes jobs away from Americans[LIST][*][COLOR="SeaGreen"]A study by the National Foundation for American Policy determined that 44 out of 87 privately held companies valued at more than $1 billion had at least one immigrant founder. [/COLOR][/LIST][*]that Democrats do not support gun ownership[LIST][*][COLOR="SeaGreen"]Well have they seen this?[/COLOR]
[url]https://www.theguardian.com/world/2013/feb/02/white-house-obama-shooting-gun[/url][/LIST][*]that Democrats do not support freedom of religion[LIST][*][COLOR="SeaGreen"]Jimmy Carter quite notably teaches Sunday School[/COLOR][/LIST][*]that Democrats do not support freedom of speech[LIST][*][COLOR="SeaGreen"]Who then was at all of the BLM protests?[/COLOR][/LIST][*]that Democrats do not support the military and police[LIST][*][COLOR="seagreen"]Biden's son served in the military and he has other ties to the military.[/COLOR][/LIST][*]that the national flag is a sacred object deserving of devotion that borders on religious[LIST][*][COLOR="seagreen"]The images from so many of their demonstrations show that they don't follow the US Flag Code.[/COLOR][/LIST][/LIST][/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;568769]I will answer some of these with some simple replies.[/QUOTE]
There’s no point trying to rationalize alas. The orange clown fans have to be reeducated in some other way.

I heard that 68% of the 70M Trump voters really think the election was stolen from them despite evdence of the contrary. I wish good luck to Biden. And to those in the R party that have not sold their soul to the orange golfer; their party really seems endangered by those extremists on their right.

[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_III_of_England[/url]
[url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Borat_Subsequent_Moviefilm[/url]

A bit of history and some contemporary parody that apply. In addition, Cohen's speech regarding his views should be seen as well..articulate and intelligent.
For anyone who traveled in dicey parts of the world "you do as they do in Rome" and glide through the various social strata talking the talk and walking the walk regardless of how Orwellian your surroundings are. An analogy would be Donnie Brasco. Look at present day Scandinavia and their politics as a whole and if you've traveled (or live there) so much the better; compare and contrast. And regarding the cult of personality, this correlates directly to intelligence,self-servitude and a fear factor compensated by mob association. Schools of fish have been known to follow the abnormal ones...and if they're sardines they all taste the same.

[url=https://www.cnn.com/2021/01/07/us/capitol-riots-people-fired-jobs-trnd/index.html]People at the US Capitol riot are being identified and losing their jobs[/url][quote]As images and social media posts of Wednesday's insurrection at the US Capitol circulate online, some of those who were present are being identified, and some have lost or left their jobs because of it.[/quote]My favorite is the guy I'd seen in one of the stills. He was wearing an ID badge. Not too smart, as illustrated by this [url=http://www.navistardirect.com/message]message from Navistar Direct Marketing[/url]:[quote]Navistar Direct Marketing was made aware that a man wearing a Navistar company badge was seen inside the U.S. Capitol on January 6, 2021 during the security breach. After review of the photographic evidence the employee in question has been terminated for cause.[/quote]No word on whether he's been charged yet, but if not it seems likely he will be soon.

One guy who has been charged (so far only with misdemeanors) is a newly elected state lawmaker.

[url=https://wvmetronews.com/2021/01/08/manchin-evacuated-this-week-from-senate-chamber-says-new-delegate-evans-should-be-punished-for-role-in-capitol-mob/]New W.Va. delegate who yelled 'We're in! We're in! Derrick Evans is in the Capitol!' now faces federal charges reflecting that[/url][quote]Evans, a Republican from Wayne County just sworn into West Virginia's House of Delegates, is contending he was videoing history and swept along with the crowd. But his own video depicts him calling out "Move! Move!" before going through the Capitol door, as security alarms blare.
<snip>
Evans, R-Wayne, livestreamed and then deleted videos from inside the Capitol, but others took screenshots and videos of his original.[/quote]So - he was "videoing history" and then deleted the video, huh? I think that's known as "knowledge of guilt."

If stupidity qualified as an aggravating factor, he'd be executed.

[URL="https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/8/22220366/apple-google-parler-pressure-deplatform-violence-capitol"]Apple and Google face pressure to deplatform Parler over calls to violence[/URL]

Trump has already been banned from FaceBook and Twitter. Reddit has suspended the largest Trump group.

Unfortunately the right will call this "cancel culture" and accuse these companies of censorship.

If Trump were removed from office before Jan 20 (impeached or the 25th Amendment), would they try to make Pence president for the few remaining days of Trump's term? I'm curious because if Pence became president I would expect him to pardon everyone in the Trump family.

I only want to see Trump charged with a crime if they truly believe that he can be convicted of it. Again, Republicans will call it a witch hunt, but I would love to see the Trump family spend millions of their dollars on lawyers who bleed them dry. I think that the Trump family will have a lot of difficulty finding people willing to do business with them after this term ends.

There is nothing in the US Constitution that says that the trial that follows Impeachment must be completed by the end of the term.

[QUOTE=rogue;568776][URL="https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/8/22220366/apple-google-parler-pressure-deplatform-violence-capitol"]Apple and Google face pressure to deplatform Parler over calls to violence[/URL][/QUOTE]Update:
[URL="https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/8/22221648/google-suspends-bans-parler-play-store"]https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/8/22221648/google-suspends-bans-parler-play-store [/URL]
and from Rogue's link an update
[QUOTE]Apple reportedly gave Parler 24 hours to add moderation or be expelled from its App Store[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;568777]There is nothing in the US Constitution that says that the trial that follows Impeachment must be completed by the end of the term.[/QUOTE]

Interesting. I never knew what the timeline was.

[QUOTE=ldesnogu]...The orange clown fans have to be reeducated in some other way.
[/QUOTE]

Good luck with this. I know a few in my locale. They are as stubborn as Everest is heavy. I do not understand how so many could be brainwashed by this buffoon. Are they so weak-minded?

[quote=rogue;568776]Trump has already been banned from FaceBook and Twitter. Reddit has suspended the largest Trump group.

Unfortunately the right will call this "cancel culture" and accuse these companies of censorship.[/quote]Simon & Schuster just cancelled publication of Senator Josh Hawley's book, citing the January 6 riot and his role in furthering the Big Lie of the "stolen election." He's yapping about an "assault on the First Amendment" (sheer demagoguery, since this obviously has nothing to do with the First Amendment) and whining about the "cancel culture."

He's also threatening to sue. The obvious grounds would be breach of contract, but I imagine the publisher consulted its legal department before making its announcement. Hawley can look for another publisher.

Speaking of suing, Dominion is suing Sidney Powell in US District Court in DC for defamation. The filing is 124 pages long, with 190 allegations of defamation and six allegations of deceptive trade practices. The complaint seeks injunctive relief, as well as compensatory damages of not less than $651,735,000 and punitive damages of not less than $651,735,000.

[quote]If Trump were removed from office before Jan 20 (impeached or the 25th Amendment), would they try to make Pence president for the few remaining days of Trump's term? I'm curious because if Pence became president I would expect him to pardon everyone in the Trump family.[/quote]If the president leaves office before his term ends, the VP automatically becomes president if able. Otherwise you go down the line of succession until you either find someone or run out of names. In the latter case, Houston, we have a problem.

Pence had informed the president by Tuesday that he did not have the legal authority, and wasn't going to, decertify electoral votes, whereupon the president "blew a gasket" and became extremely abusive. Senator Inhofe later reported that in an ensuing conversation with Pence, Pence was as angry as he had ever seen him.

On January 6, the president kept telling his supporters that Pence could change the outcome, even though he already knew Pence wasn't going to. When the rioters learned that Pence wasn't going to nullify the election, they determined to murder him. While the Capitol was occupied by rioters, the president never checked on Pence's safety.

So Pence might not be so charitably inclined toward the president...

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;568795]Pence had informed the president by Tuesday that he did not have the legal authority, and wasn't going to, decertify electoral votes, whereupon the president "blew a gasket" and became extremely abusive. Senator Inhofe later reported that in an ensuing conversation with Pence, Pence was as angry as he had ever seen him.

On January 6, the president kept telling his supporters that Pence could change the outcome, even though he already knew Pence wasn't going to. When the rioters learned that Pence wasn't going to nullify the election, they determined to murder him. While the Capitol was occupied by rioters, the president never checked on Pence's safety.

So Pence might not be so charitably inclined toward the president...[/QUOTE]
Time for some classic TV
[YOUTUBE]HxBPqCHFCcc[/YOUTUBE]

[QUOTE=storm5510;568780][QUOTE=ldesnogu]...The orange clown fans have to be reeducated in some other way.[/QUOTE]
Good luck with this. I know a few in my locale. They are as stubborn as Everest is heavy. I do not understand how so many could be brainwashed by this buffoon. Are they so weak-minded?[/QUOTE]The brainwashing has been going on for decades. Roger Ailes and Faux News led the way as the Republican Ministry of Propaganda.

I remember that in 2000, there was a lot of hysteria about Bill Clinton declaring martial law and canceling the election. Some Googling dredged up [url=http://transmitters_revenge.telcen.com/doomsday_list.html]The Doomsday List[/url] which includes the following from 2000: Byron Weeks predicted that[indent][b]The National ID Card system will be implemented on October 1st. President Clinton will declare martial law sometime in September or October, and the World Government will start rounding up the separatists and patriots. America will then be plunged into a nuclear war and desolated.

Looks like we won't have to worry about whom to vote for in November.[/b][/indent]Fast forward to 2020. Retired military officers, among others, called for the current president to declare martial law, unilaterally declare the election results "invalid," have a military-supervised "re-vote," and a roundup of Democrats and other "traitors" (like Jim Mattis) to be tried by military tribunals and executed.

IMO, retired officers who advocated this should be recalled into service so they can be court-martialed for attempted sedition.

BTW, it occurred to me that the [size=1][color=orange]president[/size][/color] might have vetoed the National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal 2021 because the top brass had let it be known that a military coup was not going to happen.

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;568777]There is nothing in the US Constitution that says that the trial that follows Impeachment must be completed by the end of the term.[/QUOTE]One reason being put forth for such a trial, is that[quote]Judgment in Cases of Impeachment shall not extend further than to removal from Office, and disqualification to hold and enjoy any Office of honor, Trust or Profit under the United States: but the Party convicted shall nevertheless be liable and subject to Indictment, Trial, Judgment and Punishment, according to Law.[/quote]Thus, the convicted person [i]can[/i] be disqualified from holding federal office. (Removal from office is automatic on conviction, which requires a two-thirds majority vote. Disqualification is discretionary, but if what I have read is correct, only requires a simple majority, following conviction.) Disqualification from office by judgement in cases of impeachment, unlike by conviction for insurrection or rebellion, can [i]not[/i] be removed by pardon.

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;555106]On August 27, 2019, 19-year-old Harry Dunn was killed when his motorcyle was hit by a car.

Anne Sacoolas has been charged with causing death by dangerous driving, by driving on the wrong side of the road.

She left the country after being interviewed by investigators, having had diplomatic immunity at the time of the offense charged.

This has been discussed on the Forum, in this and at least one other thread.

To commemorate the anniversary, I post some links to recent news stories.

BBC, July 22: [url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-53500449]Harry Dunn death: US immunity rule used by Anne Sacoolas closed[/url]

BBC, Tuesday [url=https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-northamptonshire-53907098]Harry Dunn death: Attorney general 'considers virtual trial'[/url]

Washington Post, today: [url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/harry-dunn-anne-sacoolas/2020/08/26/ff5408d8-e23d-11ea-82d8-5e55d47e90ca_story.html]Britain considers trying American accused of killing Harry Dunn in absentia[/url][/QUOTE]Perhaps I am an old cycnic, but I have been wondering whether an extradition-swap has been discussed recently between the political powers nominally in charge of a couple of intelligence organizations.

Ann Sacoolas for Julian Assange.

[QUOTE=xilman;568830]Perhaps I am an old cycnic, but I have been wondering whether an extradition-swap has been discussed recently between the political powers nominally in charge of a couple of intelligence organizations.

Ann Sacoolas for Julian Assange.[/QUOTE]Doubtful. Over in the "Torturers, 100+..." thread I recently posted about the UK judge's decision that Assange could not be extradited to the US on current charges, even though the judge ruled that the legal objections of political motivation, etc were without merit and the extradition request was valid, due to the risk he might commit suicide in a US prison. He will instead remain incarcerated in the UK as a flight risk, pending appeal of the judge's decision.

It will be interesting to see how the new Administration handles the case, assuming the appeal has not yet been adjudicated. One option would be to drop all charges. Another would be to drop the espionage charges, but keep the original charges which IIRC carry only a 5-year sentence, and play "Let's Make a Deal."

You be the judge...
 

The violent mob assault on the US Capitol during the counting of electoral votes has prompted comparisons of the US to a "banana republic."

But consider instead the usage of the term "traitor" by the personality cultists.
[quote=Woody Allen's movie Bananas]

Q: Name?

A: Sharon Craig.

Q: And you are?

A: Miss America.[indent][i]O mio babbino caro
Mi piace? bello, bello
Vo'andare in Porta Rossa
A comperarl'anello
Si, si, ci voglio andare
E se l'amassi indarno[/i][/indent]
Q: Tell the court why you think he is a traitor to this country.

A: I think Mr. Mellish is a traitor to this country because his views are different from the views of the president and others of his kind. Differences of opinion should be tolerated but not when they are too different. Then he becomes a subversive mother.[/quote]

To the Orange Furor's adulators, accommodators, adherents, apologists, apple-polishers, ass-kissers, brown-nosers, cult followers, defenders, dupes, enablers, fawners, flatterers, flunkies, groupies, hangers-on, helots, helpers, kowtowers, lackeys, lickspittles, minions, obligers, parasites, puppets, suck-ups, slaves, stooges, sycophants, thralls, tools, toadies, vassals, yes-men, and yes-women, I offer [url=https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4-pexSVWzM]this 1978 song[/url] as a tribute. (Backing vocals by Linda Ronstadt, Jennifer Warnes and Waddy Wachtel.)

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;568858]To the Orange Furor's adulators, accommodators, adherents, apologists, apple-polishers, ass-kissers, brown-nosers, cult followers, defenders, dupes, enablers, fawners, flatterers, flunkies, groupies, hangers-on, helots, helpers, kowtowers, lackeys, lickspittles, minions, obligers, parasites, puppets, suck-ups, slaves, stooges, sycophants, thralls, tools, toadies, vassals, yes-men, and yes-women, I offer [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4-pexSVWzM"]this 1978 song[/URL] as a tribute. (Backing vocals by Linda Ronstadt, Jennifer Warnes and Waddy Wachtel.)[/QUOTE]
Great song on a great album. Too bad Zevon checked out so early.

EDIT: However, I now remember that I had a reason for coming here.
[URL="https://blog.ucsusa.org/genna-reed/dangers-of-autocratic-disinformation-playbook?utm_source=facebook&utm_medium=social&utm_campaign=fb"]https://blog.ucsusa.org/genna-reed/dangers-of-autocratic-disinformation-playbook[/URL]
[CENTER]Union of Concerned Scientists
[QUOTE][CENTER]We Just Witnessed the Dangers of the Autocratic Disinformation Playbook
Genna Reed, Lead science and policy analyst | January 8, 2021, 2:04 pm EST

[/CENTER]
[LEFT]But sadly these events were a predictable outcome of an autocrat’s deadly disinformation spiral.

Disinformation is persistent, it is pervasive, and it runs deep in our country. It has been incited by our own President, members of his administration, and elected officials for the past four years. After years spent chipping away at our democracy, attempting to discredit reputable news sources, and filling social media newsfeeds with conspiracy-filled rhetoric, a [I]mostly[/I] white mob sowed chaos on the streets of my city and in the halls of a building I revere. Their cause? Stopping the purported [I]steal [/I]of a free and fair election won handily and fairly by President-Elect Joe Biden.

At UCS, we have studied disinformation sown by corporate actors to manufacture doubt and spin the science of unsafe products. We have seen those same tactics employed by President Trump and those in his administration to [URL="https://www.ucsusa.org/resources/covid-19-disinformation"]bury evidence about [/URL]the dangers of COVID-19 and fuel distrust in election integrity. The goal of disinformation, regardless of its source, is the same: to confuse the public and control the narrative for financial, political, or ideological gain.[/LEFT]
[/QUOTE][/CENTER]

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;568858]To the Orange Furor's adulators, accommodators, adherents, apologists, apple-polishers, ass-kissers, brown-nosers, cult followers, defenders, dupes, enablers, fawners, flatterers, flunkies, [B]fondlers[/B], groupies, hangers-on, helots, helpers, kowtowers, lackeys, lickspittles, minions, obligers, parasites, puppets, suck-ups, slaves, stooges, sycophants, thralls, tools, toadies, vassals, yes-men, and yes-women, I offer [URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4-pexSVWzM"]this 1978 song[/URL] as a tribute. (Backing vocals by Linda Ronstadt, Jennifer Warnes and Waddy Wachtel.)[/QUOTE]

You missed one, so I added it for you above, in bold. I could have added more, but they might have been too colorful for some.

The legal community is talking about the self-pardon thing again. They are exploring ways around it. As I have written before, I am not much on legalese. It seems the original authors of The Constitution made this a somewhat broad area, and a bit unclear as to who can or cannot do this. Time will tell.

[QUOTE=rogue;568776][URL="https://www.theverge.com/2021/1/8/22220366/apple-google-parler-pressure-deplatform-violence-capitol"]Apple and Google face pressure to deplatform Parler over calls to violence[/URL]
Trump has already been banned from FaceBook and Twitter. Reddit has suspended the largest Trump group.
Unfortunately the right will call this "cancel culture" and accuse these companies of censorship.
If Trump were removed from office before Jan 20 (impeached or the 25th Amendment), would they try to make Pence president for the few remaining days of Trump's term? I'm curious because if Pence became president I would expect him to pardon everyone in the Trump family.

I only want to see Trump charged with a crime if they truly believe that he can be convicted of it. Again, Republicans will call it a witch hunt, but I would love to see the Trump family spend millions of their dollars on lawyers who bleed them dry. I think that the Trump family will have a lot of difficulty finding people willing to do business with them after this term ends.[/QUOTE]


Because it's totally reasonable to destroy a platform unless they enforce censorship on their own part. Freedom amirite? I have seen plenty of call for violence on Twitter and Facebook, but i guess it's okay as long as it comes from the left.
Giving total control of the internet to our corporate overlord... there's no way it could go wrong. As long as you agree with them.
Trump was condemning the attack, too bad we cannot see that post anymore on his Twitter.
Payment processors, hosting companies deciding what you are allowed to say. But it's the right with their censorship...
And about the cult following: some people made their living by making fun of Trump for the past 4 years... some are truly obsessed about him, making up stories, just because people will believe while considering themselves the moral one.



[I]The hypocrisy of the other side is unable to convince me it could/will be any better than what they are fighting against. Feels like empty promises and one's suppose to overlook anything, just to defeat the big ol' boogeyman.[/I]

[QUOTE=thyw;568905]Because it's totally reasonable to destroy a platform unless they enforce censorship on their own part.[/quote]Google, Apple, Facebook, Twitter, and Amazon are companies and not governments. They are allowed to make their own policy and decide how to conduct their business. They are allowed to censor. They are not required to have free speech.

[QUOTE]Freedom amirite?[/QUOTE]
You can say and shout your rantings all you want. No newspaper, magazine, TV station, nor online forum has to let you use their platform to share it. Write the next version of Mein Kampf, but don't expect a big publisher to sell it for you.

Is freedom of speech something that is absolute? No! The classic "shouting fire in a crowded theater" is not permitted. Nor can you publish certain other things such as nation secrets, child pornography, and stolen proprietary material. Any company or forum may further restrict that to prevent their liablity.

[QUOTE]Giving total control of the internet to our corporate overlord... there's no way it could go wrong. As long as you agree with them.[/QUOTE]Buy yourself a press and hand out leaflets to your hearts content. You can discuss things on the internet in many places. But, actual calls for violence can be criminal and publishers and content providers can be held liable.
[QUOTE]Trump was condemning the attack, too bad we cannot see that post anymore on his Twitter.[/QUOTE]His response was at first not a condemnation and if anything more supportive. Later his statements were very soft. Only much later did he condemn the violence. He is the sitting President of the United States he has the 'Bully Pulpit'. If he releases a statement, the national news media will disseminate it. For a sitting president to say that they are muzzled is a farce. Rather Trump has used his executive power to try to muzzle scientists that work for the government from publishing truth that he doesn't like. He spouts ideas that people have followed, to their own harm. He deliberately mislead the people of the United States about COVID, so they wouldn't take it so seriously. He mocked people that were taking cautions that were proven methods to prevent the spread.

[QUOTE]Payment processors, hosting companies deciding what you are allowed to say.[/QUOTE]They are companies and they are allowed to decide who they deal with as long as they are not discriminating based upon certain protected criteria. Being a hate monger and a liar is not protected. You can use cash and buy your own servers.

There is a very old saying: freedom of the press is limited to those who own printing presses.

These days a "printing press" could well be a server, software and an internet connection. It has rarely been cheaper or easier to own your own printing press.

To make it clear I do not condone violence from either the right or the left, but the right seems to have cornered the market since the election.

I am frustrated that social media companies are almost being given a "free pass". They are to blame for the rampant dissemination of misinformation. This is because people can anonymous post whatever they want with little (if any) consequences to themselves. I have no problems whatsoever in social media companies flagging misinformation, but when they do choose to flag misinformation, they must provide the facts to support it, but that is not the same as censoring.

I do believe that social media should not be protected if its members post misinformation. Newspapers are not protected by libel written by a journalist so social media companies should be held to the same standard by people posting to it.

None of this has been helped by the "war on news" that Trump has been engaged in for four years.

It is our responsibility to hold media (newspapers, TV, radio, social media) to the highest possible standard of honesty and transparency. It should not be able "winning the argument", but coming to a consensus. I used to be able to do that with my more conservative friends and family members, but that has become nearly impossible today because they have bought into the disinformation machine. Evidence to support this is that I am able to tell them the things I don't like about Biden or more liberal policy positions, but they cannot even say one bad thing to say about Trump or conservative policy positions. Trump has created a litmus test for his followers, either you accept everything he says and he loves you or you disagree with anything he says and you are an enemy.

DT has been using tactics out of an old playbook.
1. Divide the group by making an us vs. them. This is usually easiest by using an ethnic group or immigrant. Even better if their skin colour is different. (The Jews have been a common group. DT used Muslims and Latin Americans at first).
2. Even though you are powerful or in the more powerful group, claim oppression. (Again the Jews have been a frequent target of this in the past.) DT has used multiple groups over time. It has been "Washington", then when he got there it was more of "Congress", or the Democrats. Now he is playing the victim re the companies that have social media.
3. Show macho strength and mock any that don't hold your positions as weak.
4. Find or make 'martyrs' for your cause and laud them even though they were a minor person.
5. Make speeches that are caustic, bombastic, and divisive.
6. Alter your message after the fact and claim you always were on the winning side.
7. Never acknowledge personal faults. If needed blame the other side as abusing you.
8. Tell big lies and tell them often. Assert that falsehood is true.
9. Take old sayings and bend them to be about your cause.
10. Punish your own people for any perceived slight, no matter how small.
11. Require devotion to you as a person.
12. Surround yourself with "Yes men" that will not try to hold you in check.

[b][i]AH[/i][/b]-nold has issued a [url=https://twitter.com/schwarzenegger/status/1348249481284874240?s=11]statement[/url].[quote]As an immigrant to this country, I would like to say a few words to my fellow Americans, and to our friends around the world about the events of recent days.

I grew up in Austria. I’m very aware of Kristallnacht, or the Night of Broken Glass.

It was night of rampage against the Jews carried out in 1938 by the Nazi equivalent of the Proud Boys.

Wednesday was the Day of Broken Glass right here in the United States.

The broken glass was in the windows of the United States Capitol.

But the mob did not just shatter the windows of the Capitol, they shattered the ideas we took for granted.

They did not just break down the doors of the building that housed American democracy; they trampled the very principles on which our country was founded.

I grew up in the ruins of a country that suffered the loss of its democracy.

I was born in 1947, two years after the Second World War. Growing up, I was surrounded by broken men drinking away the guilt over their participation in the most evil regime in history.

Not all of them were rabid anti-Semites or Nazis, many just went along, step by step, down the road.

They were the people next door.
<snip>
It all started with lies, and lies, and lies and intolerance. Being from Europe I have seen firsthand how things can spin out of control.
<snip>
President Trump sought to overturn the results of an election - and of a fair election.

He sought a coup by misleading people with lies. My father and our neighbours were misled also with lies, and I know where such lies lead.

President Trump is a failed leader. He will go down in history as the worst president ever.

The good thing is he will soon be as irrelevant as an old tweet.

But what are we to make of those elected officials who have enabled his lies and his treachery?

I will remind them of what Teddy Roosevelt said, 'Patriotism means to stand by the country. It does not mean to stand by the president.'

John F. Kennedy wrote a book called [u]Profiles in Courage[/u].

A number of members of my own party, because of their own spinelessness will never see their names in such a book, I guarantee you.
<snip>[/quote]
He spoke, for the first time so publicly, about having heard with his own ears and seen with his own eyes how "broken men drinking away their guilt" - his own father, the neighbor next door, and the neighbor next over - behaved toward their families when they were drunk.

He recalled a phrase from his Catholic upbringing, "a servant's heart." He said it meant working towards something larger than yourself, and that what we need is elected officials with a public servant's heart, who will work toward fulfilling this country's ideals, rather than merely for their own power or party.

IMO his optimism is misplaced. The Demagogue-in-Chief will [i]not[/i] soon become irrelevant. His apologists are swimming in denial. I posted long ago to the effect that electing this man president signified that this country had abandoned its ideals.

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;568918][b][i]AH[/i][/b]-nold has issued a [url=https://twitter.com/schwarzenegger/status/1348249481284874240?s=11]statement[/url][/QUOTE]Here is the video:
[YOUTUBE]x_P-0I6sAck[/YOUTUBE]

[QUOTE=thyw;568905]<snip>
I have seen plenty of call for violence on Twitter and Facebook, but i guess it's okay as long as it comes from the left.[/quote]Care to elaborate? And are you claiming that nobody "from the right" has ever advocated violence on Twitter or Facebook over the last four years? Because the initial filing in Chris Krebs's defamation lawsuit has a number of examples.
[quote]And about the cult following: some people made their living by making fun of Trump for the past 4 years... some are truly obsessed about him, making up stories
<snip[/quote]Was Reuters "making up stories" when it published interviews with supporters of our soon-to-be ex-president, quoting, for example, the Mayor of Sundown, Texas to the effect that he would [i]only[/i] believe Joe Biden had won the election fairly [i]if[/i] the president said so himself? And that the president had been "the only one we could trust" for the last four years?

That is idolatry, expressed by a cult follower toward a cult leader.

Oh, and the same man said that civil war was not off the table...

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;568919]Here is the video:
[YOUTUBE]x_P-0I6sAck[/YOUTUBE][/QUOTE]

Thanks for posting the YouTube link.

[b]EDIT:[/b] When I tried the video link on my phone, YouTube gave me the message "Video not available" and an Error 404.

[i][b]AH-[/b][/i]nold is being suppressed! He's being censored! He's being oppressed!

:rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;568926]Care to elaborate? And are you claiming that nobody "from the right" has ever advocated violence on Twitter or Facebook over the last four years?[/QUOTE]

No, he is clearly saying that the left has advocated for the same kind of violence at the same levels as the right. Some of the reported threats of violence from the left has been proven to be false (see snopes.com for examples).

It bothers me that many on the right desire a second civil war and are gearing up for one. I assume it is a small percentage, but too many Republicans in Washington aren't shouting them down.

From April 2014: [XKCD]1357[/XKCD]

[QUOTE=rogue;568935]...It bothers me that many on the right desire a second civil war and are gearing up for one. I assume it is a small percentage, but too many Republicans in Washington aren't shouting them down.[/QUOTE]

The "rumor-mill" is saying something much larger is being planned for January 20th. I have never been much on rumors, but this is something that needs watching. If I picked up on it, hopefully, those who can intervene have also.

[QUOTE=storm5510;568955]The "rumor-mill" is saying something much larger is being planned for January 20th. I have never been much on rumors, but this is something that needs watching. If I picked up on it, hopefully, those who can intervene have also.[/QUOTE]I've read that some of the brownshirts at the Certification Day festivities vowed on Parler that many would return on Inauguration Day - armed. And that "We will come in numbers that no standing army or police agency can match." Let's hope that's about as accurate as White House Press Secretary Kayleigh McEnany's claim that "over one million" MAGAts participated in the November 14 march in DC.

Twitler's post that he would not be attending the inaugural was cited as a reason for ending his account, since it could be seen as saying his cult followers wouldn't have to worry about harming him if they attacked the inaugural.

[QUOTE=storm5510;568955]The "rumor-mill" is saying something much larger is being planned for January 20th. I have never been much on rumors, but this is something that needs watching. If I picked up on it, hopefully, those who can intervene have also.[/QUOTE]Every State Governor needs to send a significant number of State Troopers and National guardsmen to DC to help celebrate the inauguration.


And:
[URL="https://twitter.com/PeterCorless/status/1347965109075730434"]https://twitter.com/PeterCorless/status/1347965109075730434 [/URL]

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;568962]Every State Governor needs to send a significant number of State Troopers and National guardsmen to DC to help celebrate the inauguration.[/quote]
They might be busy. It seems more attacks on the US and State Capitol Buildings are being planned for the weekend of the 17th.

[quote]And:
[URL="https://twitter.com/PeterCorless/status/1347965109075730434"]https://twitter.com/PeterCorless/status/1347965109075730434 [/URL][/QUOTE]I can't imagine [i]any[/i] of the president's "very special" supporters would actually have [i]fallen[/i] for that! Oh, wait...

:missingteeth: :missingteeth: :missingteeth: :missingteeth: :missingteeth: :missingteeth: :missingteeth: :missingteeth:

The US is not out of the woods WRT those who want to overthrow the government. With the shutdown of Parler, the arrests, and resignations of some elected individuals, conservatives are getting more heated up over what they perceive as censorship, cancel culture, and attacks on them. I do not know if Fox News and the other conservative media are feeding into their frenzy, but more people on the right are itching for a civil war because they are being told to fear Joe Biden and his administration for many illogical reasons that have already been posted. A Trump-loving brother-in-law won't even talk to me since last weekend. I can only imagine what is going on in his mind right now.

[QUOTE=rogue;568966]The US is not out of the woods WRT those who want to overthrow the government. With the shutdown of Parler, the arrests, and resignations of some elected individuals, conservatives are getting more heated up over what they perceive as censorship, cancel culture, and attacks on them. I do not know if Fox News and the other conservative media are feeding into their frenzy, but more people on the right are itching for a civil war because they are being told to fear Joe Biden and his administration for many illogical reasons that have already been posted. A Trump-loving brother-in-law won't even talk to me since last weekend. I can only imagine what is going on in his mind right now.[/QUOTE]With the Israelites in the Old Testament, the idols were made representations of creatures or things. The punishment for their idolatry was conquest by the Assyrians.[quote=Hosea 8:7 KJV]For they have sown the wind, and they shall reap the whirlwind: it hath no stalk; the bud shall yield no meal: if so be it yield, the strangers shall swallow it up.[/quote]
In the good ol' USA today, the idol is a man.

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;568962]Every State Governor needs to send a significant number of State Troopers and National guardsmen to DC to help celebrate the inauguration.
[/QUOTE]

A significant number of state troopers may not be possible as there is not all that many to begin with. The National Guard is a totally different story. They have large numbers to draw from. The regular army, and reserves, to start with. Then there is the USMC. Members of the NYPD and LAPD could participate. They both have many thousands of officers. If one really wants to stretch it, there is Canada to the north, then NATO. I really hope it would not come to all this. "Be prepared," the boy scout motto says.

[QUOTE=storm5510;569002]"Be prepared," the boy scout motto says.[/QUOTE]

Trump has already said "Stand up and stand by", but that was for the Proud Boys.

I believe that Trump's behavior has set up Biden for an assassination attempt, if not on inauguration day, then within his term. I'm sure the FBI has already been working on it, but with how politicized Trump has tried to make the FBI, I wonder if any of his appointees will ignore red flags. Clearly they and the capitol police ignored many red flags prior to what happened last week. The sad thing is that even if such an attempt were made many Republicans are already in the camp that it is an illegal presidency so they won't have much of an issue with it.

If every state sent 1-5% of their troopers/rangers/whatever, that is important vs. the NG. NG are not law enforcement. They can hold positions, but not arrest. They are not trained that way. Yes, Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, Houston, etc. could all send a few. As well as some of the larger Sheriff offices.

The National Guard is far superior than the rank and file military for things such as this. It is a call up and then go home situation. This is a domestic issue, which is how the NG is used. Only if there is active insurrection should the military be used.

And so it begins:
[URL="https://www.npr.org/sections/trump-impeachment-effort-live-updates/2021/01/11/955631105/impeachment-resolution-cites-trumps-incitement-of-capitol-insurrection"]https://www.npr.org/sections/trump-impeachment-effort-live-updates/2021/01/11/955631105/impeachment-resolution-cites-trumps-incitement-of-capitol-insurrection [/URL]

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;569005]If every state sent 1-5% of their troopers/rangers/whatever, that is important vs. the NG. NG are not law enforcement. They can hold positions, but not arrest. They are not trained that way. Yes, Los Angeles, Chicago, New York, Houston, etc. could all send a few. As well as some of the larger Sheriff offices..[/QUOTE]

Sending Police to help out may be sending the foxes to guard the henhouse.
Acting on tips, several jurisdictions are investigating to see if any of their officers were part of the mob.

The FBI is sending warnings about armed protesters in the capitols of all 50 states beginning Saturday. They suggest this could go on for several days. :ermm:

[QUOTE=storm5510;569039]The FBI is sending warnings about armed protesters in the capitols of all 50 states beginning Saturday. They suggest this could go on for several days. :ermm:[/QUOTE]

I live far, far away from any state capitol. Now I remember why I moved here. :smile:

By Googling for negative responses to [b][i]AH[/i][/b]-nold's message, I dredged up the following on the City-Data Forum's thread [url=https://www.city-data.com/forum/politics-other-controversies/3234213-gov-schwarzenegger-calls-trump-worst-president.html]Gov. Schwarzenegger Calls Trump the Worst President Ever and Condemns Republicans Following Him[/url] by someone with username [color=blue]madison999[/color]:[quote]Shut the hell up Arnold.

People have really gotta stop with the nazi and hitler fear mongering.

Half our country voted to destroy the best economy we've ever seen. We've got problems, but nazis ain't one if them.[/quote]

Obviously they didn't pay attention to some of the flags that were being carried by the people that stormed the capitol.

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;569060]Obviously they didn't pay attention to some of the flags that were being carried by the people that stormed the capitol.[/QUOTE]Those people were Antifa infil-traitors.

:tu:

I had no idea that there were so many old guys with huge beards and bellies in Antifa. :lol:

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;569060]Obviously they didn't pay attention to some of the flags that were being carried by the people that stormed the capitol.[/QUOTE]They who?

Even though swimming in denial is what's to be expected of cult followers when their idol's leadership causes disaster, it still boggles my mind that many of them are denying the glaring reality that it was their cult leader's supporters who waged an insurrection at the US Capitol, and parrot the raving lunacy that it was "staged by Antifa."

The thing that puzzles me is that their Pied Piper called for exactly this, so it would seem to follow that they would think that when it ensued, it was a Good Thing. Or at least to try to deny that it was a Bad Thing. And indeed many have. Perhaps some are unable to deny it was a Bad Thing, and therefore it could not be attributed to their idol?

Will they also think Antifa staged [strike]armed protests[/strike] insurrections in the run-up to Inauguration Day, should they occur?

I wonder if any idolaters will celebrate Martin Luther King Day on the 18th.

[QUOTE=kladner;569075]I had no idea that there were so many old guys with huge beards and bellies in Antifa. :lol:[/QUOTE]

Some of them there good-ole-boys from way back in them hills and hollers. :grin:

[QUOTE=kladner;569075]I had no idea that there were so many old guys with huge beards and bellies in Antifa. :lol:[/QUOTE]
They're in Anti[b][color=red]fact[/color][/b] for sure!

I just read that the FAA has began to restrict certain people from getting on planes. What criteria they are using is not mentioned. The no-fly list was mentioned. They hinted that certain people could be placed on the list. It is my understanding that once a person is placed on the list, there is no way of ever being removed from it. I suspect this is one of the Federal Government's ways of addressing the warnings the FBI has made in the past two days. I expect the FAA will tighten their restrictions more in the coming days.

As the insurrectionists were leaving on January 6, Norwegian journalist Veronica Westhrin got [url=https://twitter.com/hashtag/guyonporch?src=hashtag_click]this video[/url] of two DC citizens commiserating. [color=red][b]WARNING![/b] Cuss words galore![/color]

[QUOTE=rogue;568966]The US is not out of the woods WRT those who want to overthrow the government. With the shutdown of Parler, the arrests, and resignations of some elected individuals, conservatives are getting more heated up over what they perceive as censorship, cancel culture, and attacks on them.[/QUOTE]:clap:
Right on the head!

[url=https://apnews.com/article/donald-trump-new-york-golf-new-york-city-coronavirus-pandemic-78f8e2fa29715e142a281bd6480c0782]Trump business backlash part of 'cancel culture,' son says[/url][quote]NEW YORK (AP) — The PGA canceled its tournament at his golf course. Banks say they won't lend to him anymore. New York City is looking to end his contract to operate the Central Park skating rink.

Hits to President Donald Trump's business empire since the deadly riots at the U.S. Capitol are part of a liberal "cancel culture," his son, Eric, told The Associated Press on Tuesday, saying his father will leave the presidency with a powerful brand backed by millions of voters who will follow him "to the ends of the Earth."
<snip>[/quote]Yeah, right. Businesses want predictability and a known set of rules. An insurrectionist mob of yahoos sacking the US Capitol and seeking to lynch public officials doesn't fit with that.

But if Der Furor wants to lead his idolatrous followers [i]to the ends of the Earth,[/i] which presumably is far, far away from the good ol' USA, that would be fine and dandy with me.[quote]Asked directly in his interview if he felt his father incited the crowd, Eric Trump paused and then the line went dead.[/quote]Sometimes, silence speaks volumes.

I found the following analysis of recent events from a Christian perspective, fascinating. [url=https://www.russellmoore.com/2021/01/11/the-roman-road-from-insurrection/]The Roman Road from Insurrection[/url].

At the end of the piece is the following about the author:[quote]ABOUT RUSSELL MOORE
Russell Moore is president of the Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission of the Southern Baptist Convention, the moral and public policy agency of the nation's largest Protestant denomination.[/quote]