[QUOTE=davar55;444992]H.Clinton is incompetent, corrupt, indefensible and dangerous to us on every level.

Trump is an imperfect human male growing into the role of president.

I know who I'm voting for.[/QUOTE]
If your creep wins, I hope you have much joy in the ensuing debacle.

[QUOTE=davar55;444992]Trump is an imperfect human male growing into the role of president.[/QUOTE]

You have long expressed admiration for selected parts of "The Old Testament" on these forums. You are perhaps aware there is a sequel: "The New Testament" (I would have gone with something more flashy like "Go Forth and Kill No More: Finding Love and Forgiveness after Genocide" but I get the obvious title tie-in). If you have read it, and believe the character Jesus is meant to be a hero, how do you reconcile that with Trump? Donald Trump embodies many qualities Jesus expressly did not admire, and his words [B]and actions[/B] over the past 30+ years make it clear they share almost no common values.

[QUOTE=kladner;444993]If your creep wins, I hope you have much joy in the ensuing debacle.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=danaj;444995]You have long expressed admiration for selected parts of "The Old Testament" on these forums. You are perhaps aware there is a sequel: "The New Testament" (I would have gone with something more flashy like "Go Forth and Kill No More: Finding Love and Forgiveness after Genocide" but I get the obvious title tie-in). If you have read it, and believe the character Jesus is meant to be a hero, how do you reconcile that with Trump? Donald Trump embodies many qualities Jesus expressly did not admire, and his words [B]and actions[/B] over the past 30+ years make it clear they share almost no common values.[/QUOTE]

I admit Trump was hard to like at first, and I still have some qualms...
but for two facts: H.Clinton is a political/legal monster,
and Trump is getting the brunt of the most dishonest, vicious press attack
in the history of mass media. The vile nature of his media opponents
demands he get special positive attention just for the sake of fairness.

I agree that the media has been a bit more fair to Hillary, but The Donald is so good with his sound bites, how can they resist? He is a narcissist and I see no way that anyone can debate that. Hillary comes off as the "cat that ate the canary". She is "too polished".

If I May...
 

If I may please say and then ask (sincerely)...

The United States of America has claimed to be the greatest example of democracy, and providing opportunity to everyone who worked hard.

What, exactly, went wrong with that promise and that dream?

[QUOTE=chalsall;445180]The United States of America has claimed to be the greatest example of democracy, and providing opportunity to everyone who worked hard.

What, exactly, went wrong with that promise and that dream?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE="Winston Churchill"]Many forms of Government have been tried, and will be tried in this world of sin and woe. No one pretends that democracy is perfect or all-wise. Indeed, it has been said that democracy is the worst form of Government except all those other forms that have been tried from time to time.[/QUOTE]

You're merely looking at some of the less-than-perfect aspects of democracy.

[QUOTE=chalsall;445180]If I may please say and then ask (sincerely)...

The United States of America has claimed to be the greatest example of democracy, and providing opportunity to everyone who worked hard.

What, exactly, went wrong with that promise and that dream?[/QUOTE]
I don't think that the question should be "What [U][B]Went Wrong?[/B]"[/U] Perhaps, it could be "What[U][B] WAS WRONG?"[/B][/U] from before the beginning.

Leave aside the wrongs to Indigenous Peoples, though that might be considered the Original Sin on the proto-nation's soul. Those wrongs are being perpetuated this very day. Think treaties broken. Think oil pipeline.

Look at the founding documents. "All MEN are created equal (.....so long as they are White Male Anglos who own land.)" This is the doctrine of "Animal Farm," as amended toward the end of the story, “All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.”

Then there are the legacies of indentured servitude and slave labor.

I have heard those founding documents characterized as "The Rich White Men's Agreements." The sentiments expressed, while noble, all have to be seen through the lens of classes and castes, with the rules being written by those at the top. It is a marvel that their machine, the Constitution, has kept things together as long as it has.

I happen to greatly admire the Constitution, in its principles. It has always been inequitably applied, but it perhaps, did keep us from the most overt and outright tyrannies, at least some of the time, for some people.
[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans[/URL]
[QUOTE]Of 127,000 Japanese Americans living in the continental United States at the time of the Pearl Harbor attack, 112,000 resided on the West Coast.[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans#cite_note-20"][20][/URL] About 80,000 were [I][URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nisei"]nisei[/URL][/I] (literal translation: "second generation"; American-born Japanese with U.S. citizenship) and [I][URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sansei"]sansei[/URL][/I] ("third generation"; the children of Nisei). The rest were [I][URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Issei"]issei[/URL][/I] ("first generation", immigrants born in Japan who were ineligible for U.S. citizenship by U.S. law).[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internment_of_Japanese_Americans#cite_note-21"][21][/URL][/QUOTE]To elaborate on my previous answer to your question, Chris, we are sinking into a situation now, as is most of the rest of the world, of Corporate Power eclipsing that of Governments. There is still some edge to the Governments' Powers, but deals like NAFTA, and the impending TPP, would subjugate mere countries to judgement by corporate tribunals.

My short answer, somewhat expanded on above, was [B][SIZE=4]kaCHING! [/SIZE][/B][SIZE=2]We have the Best Congress Money Can Buy. (H/T to Greg Palast.)

EDIT: For some reason I am moved to append Eric Idle's FCC Song here. I am not quite sure of the relevance. However, it is one long, tuneful f-bomb. I will stick it in Muzak with suitable warnings.
[/SIZE]

[QUOTE=kladner;445191]To elaborate on my previous answer to your question, Chris, we are sinking into a situation now, as is most of the rest of the world, of Corporate Power eclipsing that of Governments. There is still some edge to the Governments' Powers, but deals like NAFTA, and the impending TPP, would subjugate mere countries to judgement by corporate tribunals.[/QUOTE]

Thank you (and axn) for your answers. And I partially agree with both of you.

But my feeling is that we (read: humans) have been running this optimization experiment of economic and political systems in many different countries, each with their own unique configuration, for many, many years now. (And the interrelationship graph is extremely complex: trade agreements, mutual preservation agreements, past wrongs, past wars, ongoing war (stated or implicit), etc, etc, etc...)

I would argue we have actually made some progress in some areas. Realizing, for example, that Socialism is an economic system, not a political system; and therefore the fact that both Canada and France et al have "single payer health care" doesn't mean their Communists. And that Communist countries can actually run on a Capitalist framework.

At the end of the day, though, this 2016 United States of America election cycle seems to be extremely extreme. It's all about personalities, with very little substantive discussion about deep political policy issues (with, you know, boring stuff like facts and figures).

With absolutely no intent to insult...

My current theory is this "event" is primarily a result of two the things: lack of education and knowledge, and secondly, the short attention span culture which results from people glued to the TV channels and the Internet feeding them too much information constantly for them to be able to think.

Comments welcomed. Especially if they're in disagreement. 8-)

I agree mostly with what's already been said. I think the other thing is that people are inherently flawed. It's why systems like socialism or communism (in a pure form) can never, in my opinion, work. They rely on people behaving rationally and altruistically, and there's too many, maybe all, who don't 100% of the time. I think that's why we end up with the hybrid systems we do--try and make up for the weaknesses of one system with the complimentary strengths of another.

As for the lack of policy discussion this election, some of it is attributable to lack of knowledge among the voter base and media's sound-bite obsession, but I think if we're being honest, it's that Trump is simply incapable of holding any kind of sustained policy discussion (again, in my opinion). I've seen nothing from him to suggest that he is able (or willing) to do so. I think the democratic system works best when competing ideas are bounced off of each other. As I look more at Gary Johnson and Jill Stein, I'm disappointed at what they have to offer--Johnson in particular is supposed to be good at domestic policy, but when he's actually pushed on it, he seems to have proven lacking. And that doesn't even touch on foreign policy, where he seems to be completely lost. Clinton's policies leave some (or much, depending on your own views) to be desired, but shit, at least she can speak intelligently and with some amount of logic.

[url]http://www.npr.org/2016/10/17/498328520/sen-mccain-says-republicans-will-block-all-court-nominations-if-clinton-wins?station=KXJZ_FM[/url]

[QUOTE]Sen. John McCain (R-Ariz) said Monday that if Hillary Clinton is elected, Republicans will unite to block anyone she nominates to the Supreme Court.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]She went on to add that McCain "will, of course, thoroughly examine the record of any Supreme Court nominee put before the Senate and vote for or against that individual based on their qualifications."[/QUOTE]
...and then, regardless of their qualifications, will vote against.

With spokespersons like these, who needs enemies!