Which direction is "correct" for a single-throw switch?
 

A quick question for anyone with an opinion...

In your mind, which is the correct position for a vertical switch to be "on"? Up, or Down?

To me, down is off, and up is on. This is the standard in North America.

Apparently, according to [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_switch#Orientation"]Wikipedia[/URL] (an infallible source of knowledge as we all know) the convention differs by region and/or country. Apparently in the UK et al the opposite is expected -- down is on, and up is off. But, then, they drive on the wrong side of the road, so this should be expected...

(To be clear, this is only relevant for single pole switches; three and four way switches can't be configured to have a "correct direction" for on because there's more than one switch in the equation.)

Thoughts?

[QUOTE=chalsall;404724]Apparently, according to [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light_switch#Orientation"]Wikipedia[/URL] (an infallible source of knowledge as we all know) the convention differs by region and/or country. Apparently in the UK et al the opposite is expected -- down is on, and up is off. But, then, they drive on the [B]wrong[/B] side of the road, so this should be expected...
Thoughts?[/QUOTE]
s/wrong/correct/

We agree that the US drives on the right side of the road.

The UK, Japan, Thailand, Eire, Australia, India ... all drive on the correct side of the road.

[QUOTE=chalsall;404724]A quick question for anyone with an opinion...

In your mind, which is the correct position for a vertical switch to be "on"? Up, or Down?


Thoughts?[/QUOTE]

Don't you go both ways????

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;404727]Don't you go both ways????[/QUOTE]

I do. Since I'm dyslexic, it's easy!

I can drive as easily on the left side of the road as the right. :wink:

Now, back to my question about which vertical switch positions being "correct"...

[QUOTE=chalsall;404730]I do. Since I'm dyslexic, it's easy!

I can drive as easily on the left side of the road as the right. :wink:

Now, back to my question about which vertical switch positions being "correct"...[/QUOTE]

Consider a light in a stairwell controlled by two separate switches......

The light is off, both switches are "down". The switch at the bottom is thrown and the light
turns on. One ascends. One now throws the switch at the top and the light turns off....

[QUOTE=xilman;404726]We agree that the US drives on the right side of the road.[/QUOTE]

I'm originally from Canada. We're a bit like Americans, but without the concealed guns....

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;404731]Consider a light in a stairwell controlled by two separate switches......

The light is off, both switches are "down". The switch at the bottom is thrown and the light
turns on. One ascends. One now throws the switch at the top and the light turns off....[/QUOTE]

Mr. Silverman...

Please reread the opening post.

Specifically "To be clear, this is only relevant for single pole switches; three and four way switches can't be configured to have a "correct direction" for on because there's more than one switch in the equation.

[QUOTE=chalsall;404724]To me, down is off, and up is on. This is the standard in North America.[/QUOTE]
That's how I think it "should be" too. From memory that used to be standard in the UK when I lived there, both for light switches and switches on electric sockets, but my impression of switches here in NL is that people here just pick either possibility at random when they construct a switch. In our flat the two configurations are about evenly represented amongst all the switches. It's a mild annoyance when I'm feeling particularly prickly.:huh:

I vote for Up=On...seems to be standard in Canada

For a few years I worked on an experiment controlled by two instrument racks located side-by-side. The equipment was originally assembled in the UK then shipped to the US. The left rack was shipped with the instrument, had UK-style plugs powered by 230V AC, and all power switches in that rack used the down-is-on convention. The right rack was reserved for local equipment, had US style plugs powered by 110V AC, and used the up-is-on convention. It was a bit confusing at first. :smile:

The only SPST switches that I'd prefer to see using down-for -on are main power circuit knife switches, pedal switches and occasionally other momentary switches.

[QUOTE=only_human;404740]The only SPST switches that I'd prefer to see using down-for -on are main power circuit knife switches, pedal switches and occasionally other momentary switches.[/QUOTE]

Really? Down for on?

I once entered the electrical room during an emergency with my second behind me.

I kept pulling down the circuit breakers (many pops etc) -- eventually I figured out the bad circuit (my second had already run away).

[QUOTE=chalsall;404742]Really? Down for on?

I once entered the electrical room during an emergency with my second behind me.

I kept pulling down the circuit breakers (many pops etc) -- eventually I figured out the bad circuit (my second had already run away).[/QUOTE]
I'm talking of those primitive big metal blades that are pulled down to close a circuit; I did say knife switches.

[QUOTE=only_human;404743]I'm talking of those primitive big metal blades that are pulled down to close a circuit; I did say knife switches.[/QUOTE]

Generally, such blade switches are pulled up to close a circuit.

But please forgive me, I'm from India. What do I know....

Hi All,

I think a single switch should have up for on. This is more intuitive.

I have included the wiring diagram for a two switch scenario.

Regards,
Matt

[QUOTE=chalsall;404748]Generally, such blade switches are pulled up to close a circuit.

But please forgive me, I'm from India. What do I know....[/QUOTE]
You likely know more than me; no doubt you are right. The only reason I said down was mentally it seemed less likely that one would be reaching across the switch while the exposed metal was voltage live. I didn't check the real world and didn't mean to imply that I gave it much thought. I was just venturing an opinion and not a particularly valuable one.

in fact I waz wrong on this. If down is on, an unsecured switch could fall into on.

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;404731]Consider a light in a stairwell controlled by two separate switches......

The light is off, both switches are "down". The switch at the bottom is thrown and the light
turns on. One ascends. One now throws the switch at the top and the light turns off....[/QUOTE]

That is called a 3 way circuit. It has two [STRIKE]DPST[/STRIKE] (oops) SPDT switches. Why it is called 3-way is beyond me. Perhaps it is because 3 wires are involved instead of 2. However, it is not the basic single pole single throw switch. To tell the truth, such setups kind of bother me because the switch position is not informative.

I actually have two standards: OFF is either down or left.

[QUOTE=kladner;404754]That is called a 3 way circuit. It has two [STRIKE]DPST[/STRIKE] (oops) SPDT switches. Why it is called 3-way is beyond me. Perhaps it is because 3 wires are involved instead of 2. However, it is not the basic single pole single throw switch. To tell the truth, such setups kind of bother me because the switch position is not informative.

I actually have two standards: OFF is either down or left.[/QUOTE]

one thought that came to me is maybe because from any one starting position as off/on there's 3 other ways to combine the two ( some times in sink) that the light can be turned to the other setting.

Edward Tufte would have probably suggested that because the semantic of the on/off switches is broken for the "corridor flips", they should have been replaced with e.g. push-buttons.

I have these in three places in my house (e.g. switch on, go upstairs and switch it off) and I don't like the "up-down" switches for them. (making a mental note to replace)
[YOUTUBE]kNbJE0y29_c[/YOUTUBE]

[QUOTE=chalsall;404733]Mr. Silverman...

Please reread the opening post.

Specifically "To be clear, this is only relevant for single pole switches; three and four way switches can't be configured to have a "correct direction" for on because there's more than one switch in the equation.[/QUOTE]

Doesn't that kind of invalidate the question though? The correct way is to flip the switch to your desired result.

Why must it be up-vs-down. Throw those switches side-to-side and then there would be less argument.[quote=Brian-E]In our flat the two configurations are about evenly represented amongst all the switches. It's a mild annoyance when I'm feeling particularly prickly.[/quote]If you have a screwdriver then a few minutes work could ease your frustrations.

Up=ON is the "correct" way, for many reasons.

Think about ELCBs (electronic circuit breakers) for example, some have springs, some work on gravity. When I was working at the university we had circuit "holds" for all the labs, they were working on "gravity" too. They looked like a normal light switch, but there was a small electromagnet inside, which was "holding" the switch in ON position. The lab assistant would switch the electricity ON before the lab starts, and switch it OFF at the end. All equipment was powered from the power rails passing through those switches. You put the switch ON by lifting a small knob up, then it is held "up" by the current passing through it. If there was an electricity break, the switch went down (because no current to hold it), and OFF. And it didn't went back ON by itself if the power went back ON in a flash. The reason is that most electronic stuff (not only in those labs, and computers included) are sensitive to negative power spikes, you may know that when you turn your computer OFF, you should NEVER turn it immediately ON. Wait 5-10 seconds before turning it ON again. An OFF-then-immediate-ON shock can (and it will!) damage your power supply.

Also, think about rows of automatic fuses, you turn them ON by pressing them "up". When one "falls", then it "falls", it means "down", you can see the lever down, or the red mark which means "down".

Since I am in Thai I have an eternal problem with switches. They are all viceversa, everywhere, including in my house. You have to press the switch down to put the light on. This is somehow stupid. In my house, every time a switch failed (they die from time to time, you can imagine I lived in this house for 15 years, some things get broken and you have to fix them, from time to time), so, every time a switch or power plug died, and I had to repair them, I mounted them in the "correct" position. This makes the things even more difficult, because now we have a mix there :smile: and I am too lazy to take that screwdriver and change all.

There is a simple reason why 'Down=ON' is used, or in the case of rocker switches 'Bottom In = On'.

Consider that most domestic wall sockets are below eye level. When this convention is used a hidden section of the switch becomes exposed to the observer looking down on it and this newly exposed portion can (does in many cases in the UK) carry a warning (coloured RED or the word 'ON' in red) , indicating that the circuit is now LIVE.

[QUOTE=retina;404759]Why must it be up-vs-down. Throw those switches side-to-side and then there would be less argument.[/QUOTE]

Ah, but then is right on, or left? :wink: Personally we have several "gang" switches in our house, and they're configured for right is on.

[QUOTE=retina;404759]If you have a screwdriver then a few minutes work could ease your frustrations.[/QUOTE]

That's what I'm doing... We're "snagging" the electrical in our house, and I told our electricians that all switches should be "up for on" (except, again, in 3-way configurations). They looked at me as if I was mad, and said that if an electrical inspector saw that they would tell you to reverse it. "Tell, or recommend?" "Um, recommend." "Good," I said, "because for most people up is on." They didn't believe me, and said that probably 99% of all switches in Barbados are down for on.

Barbados is a weird mixture of influences. Heavy British heritage (naturally), but we follow the US of A's National Electrical Code (NEC). Our grid is 50 Hz, but at 115 / 230 -- messes up quite a bit of electrical kit!

[QUOTE=retina;404759]Why must it be up-vs-down. Throw those switches side-to-side and then there would be less argument.If you have a screwdriver then a few minutes work could ease your frustrations.[/QUOTE]
Which direction should a dimmer switch be rotated? Is this tyranny against lefties?

[QUOTE=LaurV;404760]Up=ON is the "correct" way, for many reasons.[/QUOTE]Who cares, IMAO?

A second's experimentation will work out the local convention. If you can't remember it after that perhaps you should have a check for incipient dementia. If you remember, that is.

[QUOTE=xilman;404784]Who cares, IMAO?

A second's experimentation will work out the local convention. If you can't remember it after that perhaps you should have a check for incipient dementia. If you remember, that is.[/QUOTE]
Light switches challenge us in our weakest moments: stumbling in the dark, blind drunk, grouchy and tired, preparing for a workday while missing cylinders.

Not that this couldn't be applied to the correct way of driving...

Anyone remember when you used to buy wall switches that contained a bead of mercury for absolutely silent operation? They were plainly marked as to which end was to be physically UP when installed, and UP was ON.

[QUOTE=only_human;404785]Light switches challenge us in our weakest moments: stumbling in the dark, blind drunk, grouchy and tired, preparing for a workday while missing cylinders.[/QUOTE]Even in the dark, a 1-bit exhaustive search doesn't take long. Neither does it remain dark for long.

[QUOTE=only_human;404785]Light switches challenge us in our weakest moments: stumbling in the dark, blind drunk, grouchy and tired, preparing for a workday while missing cylinders.

Not that this couldn't be applied to the correct way of driving...[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=xilman;404807]Even in the dark, a 1-bit exhaustive search doesn't take long. Neither does it remain dark for long.[/QUOTE]
You try solving a 1-bit problem while you are stumbling in the dark, blind drunk, grouchy and tired and getting ready for work with misfiring cylinders.

I'll have you know that while inserting my first pair of contact lenses for the first time a fairly large earthquake occurred. Since I getting ready for work and quite pressured for time, panic set in as I had dropped one of the lenses over the sink that I was leaning over to near sightedly insert them while using a medicine cabinet mirror. After several minutes of searching fruitlessly, I gave up and turned on the water to wash my hands whereupon I heard a crackling sound which was my dried contact lens on the hot water knob cracking and tearing.

Another time I accidentally brushed my teeth with head-and-shoulders dandruff shampoo.

And now a 1-bit problem is added to the test! I didn't study for that.

This thread is starting to rival the "which direction is correct for the airport luggage carousel" website:

[URL]http://www.dullmensclub.com/archive/airport.htm[/URL]

[QUOTE=Nick;404810]This thread is starting to rival the "which direction is correct for the airport luggage carousel" website:

[URL]http://www.dullmensclub.com/archive/airport.htm[/URL][/QUOTE]
If you want real disagreement, ask a few people the proper way to load a dishwasher (i.e. big pans, silverware)

[QUOTE=Antonio;404762]There is a simple reason why 'Down=ON' is used, or in the case of rocker switches 'Bottom In = On'.

Consider that most domestic wall sockets are below eye level. When this convention is used a hidden section of the switch becomes exposed to the observer looking down on it and this newly exposed portion can (does in many cases in the UK) carry a warning (coloured RED or the word 'ON' in red) , indicating that the circuit is now LIVE.[/QUOTE]

You know, that's the first explanation for why "Down" would be considered "On" that makes sense to me.

But... to North Americans, the idea of having a switch on an electrical outlet is extremely strange. As do the HUGE plugs used (sometimes with fuses built in).

I understand the reasoning -- 230V is WAY more dangerous than 110V / 115V / 120V (trust me, I know -- I've been shocked by all four at different times in my life). But, admittedly, higher voltages are more efficient in transmission and distribution.

(A quick amusing aside, if I may... I once came home from work and my (ex)wife accused me of having an affair because I wasn't wearing my wedding ring. I pulled it out of my back pocket and put it on, explained that I had been working on live circuits that day and didn't want to risk have the ring accidentally short out a circuit, weld itself to the equipment, superheat, and then amputate my finger. She didn't believe me; I can laugh about it now.... :smile:)

[QUOTE=chalsall;404835]You know, that's the first explanation for why "Down" would be considered "On" that makes sense to me.

As do the HUGE plugs used (sometimes with fuses built in).
[/QUOTE]

ALWAYS with fuse holders and fuses built in. It would be illegal to fit or sell any other sort. Very sensible if you ask me, who wants 30A continuous at 230V (that's almost 7KW) being dumped into a faulty piece of kit? Something would soon catch fire.

[QUOTE=Antonio;404838]ALWAYS with fuse holders and fuses built in. It would be illegal to fit or sell any other sort. Very sensible if you ask me, who wants 30A continuous at 230V (that's almost 7KW) being dumped into a faulty piece of kit? Something would soon catch fire.[/QUOTE]

Thank you for that. Sincerely.

In "my world" this is what circuit breakers are for -- back at the panel, rather than at the plug.

In places where water (or water bags (read: humans)) may be present (e.g. bathrooms, kitchens, outside) GFCI (Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupter) outlets are used.

To speak to you question directly, very few want 7KW being dumped into anything unless it is planned for. But, it has been a /very/ long time since most people use fuses rather than breakers.

[QUOTE=chalsall;404842]Thank you for that. Sincerely.

In "my world" this is what circuit breakers are for -- back at the panel, rather than at the plug.

In places where water (or water bags (read: humans)) may be present (e.g. bathrooms, kitchens, outside) GFCI (Ground-Fault Circuit Interrupter) outlets are used.

To speak to you question directly, very few want 7KW being dumped into anything unless it is planned for. But, it has been a /very/ long time since most people use fuses rather than breakers.[/QUOTE]

Just to clear things up, there are circuit breakers to protect the house wiring the UK standard ring main has a 30A circuit breaker fitted.

This, however, is not much protection for a lead plugged into the main which is only capable of carrying 13A continuous, as in the case of most heavy domestic equipment (washing machines, kettles etc.) or 6A (sometimes only 3A) for electronic equipment ( TV, stereo, computer, table lamp etc.).
The theory is that the fuse in the plug protects the power lead from faulty equipment (or full/partial short circuit from mechanical damage) so that it doesn't overheat and cause a fire. The equipment that the lead is attached to should have it's own fuse system to prevent it from becoming a hazard should it develop a fault.

We just don't trust this new fangled electrickery stuff :smile:

[QUOTE=Antonio;404838]ALWAYS with fuse holders and fuses built in. It would be illegal to fit or sell any other sort. Very sensible if you ask me, who wants 30A continuous at 230V (that's almost 7KW) being dumped into a faulty piece of kit? Something would soon catch fire.[/QUOTE]

not to mention even if not electrical I don't think people want the roughly 1.5 Calories ( nutrition) these days. edit: sorry 1.5 Calories per second.

[QUOTE=Antonio;404843]We just don't trust this new fangled electrickery stuff :smile:[/QUOTE]

Thank you for the clarification...

As a child I used to enjoy plugging in wires into the outlets and watch them melt.

"Snap, crackle, pop!

My physics teacher, after I had demonstrated that a capacitor still had charge to my friends using my tongue exclaimed "What do you do during Chemistry class -- lick frogs?!?!?!?

[QUOTE=science_man_88;404847]not to mention even if not electrical I don't think people want the roughly 1.5 Calories ( nutrition) these days. edit: sorry 1.5 Calories per second.[/QUOTE]

130,000 calories per day, that would certainly pile on the pounds/kilograms.

Only one way here...

[QUOTE=Antonio;404843]Just to clear things up, there are circuit breakers to protect the house wiring the UK standard ring main has a 30A circuit breaker fitted.[/QUOTE]Further, on new installations each circuit is now required to have a 30mA max RCD fitted. For those new to the jargon, a [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device"]residual current device[/URL] measures the current imbalance between live and neutral, the difference presumably leaking to earth. Earth leakage currents >30mA at 230V are easily capable of killing you directly or indirectly.

Newly installed outdoor power sockets are also required to be protected with a 30mA RCD.

Existing non-protected installations are still legal but are being steadily upgraded.

The UK takes electrickery safety very seriously.

[QUOTE=chalsall;404848]Thank you for the clarification...

As a child I used to enjoy plugging in wires into the outlets and watch them melt.

"Snap, crackle, pop!
[/QUOTE]

Even that is no simple task in the UK.
The UK socket has internal shutters over the live and neutral holes which are moved out of the way by the insertion of the (longer) earth pin on the plug.
Modern plugs have the live and neutral pins shrouded with an insulating layer (except for a short length at the tip) so that at no point during the insertion/extraction of the plug is electrical contact with a live pin possible.

[QUOTE=xilman;404884]For those new to the jargon, a [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Residual-current_device"]residual current device[/URL] measures the current imbalance between live and neutral, the difference presumably leaking to earth.[/QUOTE]In America we call that a "[URL="http://sdinspect.com/home-facts/when-and-where-are-gfci-receptacles-required/"]Ground Fault Circuit [/URL][URL="http://sdinspect.com/home-facts/when-and-where-are-gfci-receptacles-required/"]Interrupter[/URL]" (GFCI). They can be part of the receptacle or built into the circuit breaker.

We also have a requirement for an "[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arc-fault_circuit_interrupter"]Arc Fault Circuit Interrupter[/URL]" in some locations.

During my trip so far through Nordic countries, including Iceland, Norway, Sweden, and Finland, every switch I have encountered has on as up. Seems to be the standard most parts.

Though North American three prong plugs are often mounted with the round ground pin down, it's actually safer to have it at the top: if the plug becomes loose, it's better to have something fall on the ground pin that hot or neutral.

[QUOTE=Mark Rose;404998]Though North American three prong plugs are often mounted with the round ground pin down, it's actually safer to have it at the top: if the plug becomes loose, it's better to have something fall on the ground pin that hot or neutral.[/QUOTE]The mass of the plug and the fact that the ground pin is the longest would dictate that having it bottom would create a more stable connection.