[QUOTE=only_human;394469]It's bad when they sell [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylene_glycol"]diethylene glycol[/URL] in lieu of glycerine and it ends up in medicine. It is bad when they sell toxic melamine as a protein substitute for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal"]milk[/URL] and petfoods because its high nitrogen content fools food protein assays and it kills children and pets.

It is also bad when we inject water into poultry prior to freezing to make it weigh more. It is unnecessary except for the profit incentive by weight and is a potential vector of contamination. Not to mention the henway.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I know what's a henway.

And we all agree that such abuses have occurred, but Don't Blame Capitalism.
Blame immorality or incompetence. Blame the darker side of (some) human behavior.

Don't blame the profit motive for those who take that out of context.

What is this one?

Wealth is Created by Action Based on Rational Thought ...
[url]https://objectivismforintellectuals.wordpress.com/.../wealth-is-created-by-act[/url]...
Aug 31, 2013 - ... that happened in the Renaissance, Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution.
Further reading on values, wealth, money and capitalism:.
Timeline Photos - Facebook

[QUOTE=davar55;394473]What is this one?[noparse]

Wealth is Created by Action Based on Rational Thought ...
https://objectivismforintellectuals.wordpress.com/.../wealth-is-created-by-act...
Aug 31, 2013 - ... that happened in the Renaissance, Enlightenment and the Industrial Revolution.
Further reading on values, wealth, money and capitalism:.
Timeline Photos - Facebook[/noparse][/QUOTE]
It's a paen to the brains at the apex of a pyramid.

[URL="https://objectivismforintellectuals.wordpress.com/2013/08/31/wealth-is-created-by-action-based-on-rational-thought/"]Wealth is Created by Action Based on Rational Thought[/URL][QUOTE]When socialists and leftists say (or imply) that large inequalities in wealth are unjust, they ignore the fact that there are large inequalities in wealth creation. When they intimate that it is an injustice of capitalism that a CEO makes so much more than a maid working two jobs, even though the maid “works just as hard,” (i.e. the same number of hours) they are ignoring the fundamental fact that different types of work create vastly different amounts of wealth. The CEO has much greater mental work, knowledge, legal responsibility and is responsible for the production of much more wealth. Ignoring that fact of reality and attempting to force equality is the real injustice. It is the attempt to make slaves out of those who are most productive, via government: to make them do their highly productive work for whatever alms the mass of less productive members of society deign to give them, through government. (This is instead of their earning what the people, with whom they deal, are voluntarily willing to pay them for their work.)[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=davar55;394472]Yes, I know what's a henway.

And we all agree that such abuses have occurred, but Don't Blame Capitalism.
Blame immorality or incompetence. Blame the darker side of (some) human behavior.

Don't blame the profit motive for those who take that out of context.[/QUOTE]So capitalism is like the son whose mother can only see the good and ignores the bad.

[QUOTE=only_human;394469]It's bad when they sell [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylene_glycol"]diethylene glycol[/URL] in lieu of glycerine and it ends up in medicine. It is bad when they sell toxic melamine as a protein substitute for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal"]milk[/URL] and petfoods because its high nitrogen content fools food protein assays and it kills children and pets.

It is also bad when we inject water into poultry prior to freezing to make it weigh more. It is unnecessary except for the profit incentive by weight and is a potential vector of contamination. Not to mention the henway.[/QUOTE]

This is the part that gets me the most riled up. Everywhere I see this debate some loon brings up cases like this where serious damage is dealt to people or the environment they live in, where the motivation was to save money and "Ah ha! Capitalism kills!" is cried everywhere.

People love to jump to the generalization which suggests capitalism "makes profit at any cost" which is forgetting one very important thing: The Law. This economic system doesn't just claim itself to be exempt from the law. It can't. That's not how the law works. To anyone saying that the super rich just buy themselves out of holes; in the same way, you are forgetting that this is ILLEGAL. You can't blame capitalism for this any more than you can blame Islam for terrorism.


[QUOTE=only_human;394479]So capitalism is like the son whose mother can only see the good and ignores the bad.[/QUOTE]

If that's the case, you're the crotchety old neighbour who can only see the bad and ignore the good. But that isn't the case. You're talking about Crony Capitalism.

No I'm saying that although market forces motivate a lot of good, they lead to bad results too. This is why eliminating regulation as a no brain go to move is reckless.

[QUOTE=only_human;394469]It's bad when they sell [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diethylene_glycol"]diethylene glycol[/URL] in lieu of glycerine and it ends up in medicine. It is bad when they sell toxic melamine as a protein substitute for [URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal"]milk[/URL] and petfoods because its high nitrogen content fools food protein assays and it kills children and pets.

It is also bad when we inject water into poultry prior to freezing to make it weigh more. It is unnecessary except for the profit incentive by weight and is a potential vector of contamination. Not to mention the henway.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=davar55;394472]Yes, I know what's a henway.

And we all agree that such abuses have occurred, but Don't Blame Capitalism.
Blame immorality or incompetence. Blame the darker side of (some) human behavior.

Don't blame the profit motive for those who take that out of context.[/QUOTE]
I detect a double standard, davar55.

You were keen earlier to give Capitalism the sole credit for ensuring that people have their basic rights and equal opportunities (rather than, say, giving credit to the selfless humanity of teachers, social workers and care workers who, despite generally not being the most financially rewarded of us, are at the forefront of ensuring that all individuals can take part in society). But when something has gone badly wrong, it's not Capitalism that's at fault but immorality, incompetence and the darker side of (some) human behaviour.

Can you at least agree that only_human's examples regarding the new Capitalism of China show that economic freedom, while it may be necessary, is not in itself sufficient for a society which gives everyone their freedom and opportunity?

[QUOTE=only_human;394478]It's a paen to the brains at the apex of a pyramid.

[URL="https://objectivismforintellectuals.wordpress.com/2013/08/31/wealth-is-created-by-action-based-on-rational-thought/"]Wealth is Created by Action Based on Rational Thought[/URL]
[QUOTE]When socialists and leftists say (or imply) that large inequalities in wealth are unjust, they ignore the fact that there are large inequalities in wealth creation. When they intimate that it is an injustice of capitalism that a CEO makes so much more than a maid working two jobs, even though the maid “works just as hard,” (i.e. the same number of hours) they are ignoring the fundamental fact that different types of work create vastly different amounts of wealth. The CEO has much greater mental work, knowledge, legal responsibility and is responsible for the production of much more wealth.[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]

I have no problem with CEOs who actually do provide such value-add in a legal and sustainable way, e.g., without offshoring a bunch of manufacturing-chain pollution and worker exploitation, i.e. doing so without f*cking over some third-world country by turning it into a polluted slave-labor hellhole, or - in the case of Big Finance - by screwing over a bunch of investors, clients, &c, and gambling so recklessly as to blow up the global financial system and then begging for your various bought-and-paid-for governments to bail you out. What fraction of Fortune 500 CEOs would you judge as actually falling into the "pay justified by value-add" category? And how about the ones - I'm looking at you, TBTF banksters - whose "value-add" to themselves and company shareholders is the direct result of massive value-subtractive-from-the-real-economy fraud?

[QUOTE=TheMawn;394484]People love to jump to the generalization which suggests capitalism "makes profit at any cost" which is forgetting one very important thing: The Law. This economic system doesn't just claim itself to be exempt from the law. It can't. That's not how the law works. To anyone saying that the super rich just buy themselves out of holes; in the same way, you are forgetting that this is ILLEGAL.[/QUOTE]

THE LAW only exists insofar as it IS ENFORCED. It is not a stretch to sy that for privileged classes of elite criminals such as the aforementioned banksters, there is no law or regulation they need worry about. The governments whose first priority is supposedly enforcing said laws have made eminently clear that they will not do so when it comes to the economic, financial and political elites.

[QUOTE]If that's the case, you're the crotchety old neighbour who can only see the bad and ignore the good. But that isn't the case. You're talking about Crony Capitalism.[/QUOTE]

In other words he's talking about capitalism as actually practiced throughout its history; that is, "reality". Posters wanting to discuss "fantasy capitalism" is the reason this thread was created, rather than to discuss it in the reality-based MET2015 thread.

[QUOTE=only_human;394486]No I'm saying that although market forces motivate a lot of good, they lead to bad results too. This is why eliminating regulation as a no brain go to move is reckless.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Brian-E;394488]... show that economic freedom, while it may be necessary, is not in itself sufficient for a society which gives everyone their freedom and opportunity?[/QUOTE]

The bad things that the free market "leads to" are not unique to the free market. The free market does not define the entire system; only its economic portion. The law in my city / province / whatever that I cannot legally own a cat without having it licensed is in no way relevant to the economic element of how my c/p/w is run.

At least we agree that economic freedom is necessary. The problem is that the places that are economically (very) free but still [B][U]fucked[/U][/B] [B][U]up[/U][/B] (from United Arab Emirates to Bahrain to even Singapore) are fucked up for other reasons that are not attached to an economic system.


[QUOTE=ewmayer;394490]
THE LAW only exists insofar as it IS ENFORCED. It is not a stretch to sy that for privileged classes of elite criminals such as the aforementioned banksters, there is no law or regulation they need worry about. The governments whose first priority is supposedly enforcing said laws have made eminently clear that they will not do so when it comes to the economic, financial and political elites.

In other words he's talking about capitalism as actually practiced throughout its history; that is, "reality". Posters wanting to discuss "fantasy capitalism" is the reason this thread was created, rather than to discuss it in the reality-based MET2015 thread.[/QUOTE]

This relates to what I've said before. This isn't capitalism and it certainly isn't the free market. It is corruption. Corruption is NOT unique to even this Crony Capitalism. Communism had the same issue, only worse because to actually have a life worth living you needed to break the law. I don't discount Communism because of what happened in the Soviet Union, but because it is flawed on a fundamental level.

To come in here and say that because of the way we're screwing up the free market, we should scrap the whole thing is naive.



[QUOTE=ewmayer;394490]I have no problem with CEOs who actually do provide such value-add in a legal and sustainable way, e.g., without offshoring a bunch of manufacturing-chain pollution and worker exploitation, i.e. doing so without f*cking over some third-world country by turning it into a polluted slave-labor hellhole, or - in the case of Big Finance - by screwing over a bunch of investors, clients, &c, and gambling so recklessly as to blow up the global financial system and then begging for your various bought-and-paid-for governments to bail you out. What fraction of Fortune 500 CEOs would you judge as actually falling into the "pay justified by value-add" category? And how about the ones - I'm looking at you, TBTF banksters - whose "value-add" to themselves and company shareholders is the direct result of massive value-subtractive-from-the-real-economy fraud?[/QUOTE]

Bail-outs are the exact opposite of Free Market. Bailouts are NOT a free market concept. Get that straight.

Which part of this corruption falls into the definition of capitalism?

[QUOTE=TheMawn;394493]To come in here and say that because of the way we're screwing up the free market, we should scrap the whole thing is naive.[/QUOTE]
Then I will know what to say if someone in the thread actually suggests scrapping the whole thing.

[QUOTE=davar55;394463]All three of these claims are false or inaccurate at best.[/QUOTE]Please enlarge on this bald statement, otherwise you can justifiably be arguing by fiat. Unjustified proclamations do not make an argument.


I am entirely willing to expand on my statements if you give us a clue as to where you have difficulty understandng my message.