[QUOTE=TheMawn;382642]What exactly drives you to interject so often?

[/QUOTE]

I asked a simple question. What drives you and other to post taunts
in reply? You clearly fail to discern the intent of the question.


[QUOTE]
People are using [B]their[/B] own hardware as [B]they[/B] please. I for one am getting sick of your negativity. None of your posts have generated any enjoyment. I request that you leave this discussion, Robert.[/QUOTE]

Using software written by others. Using software that they are too lazy
to be bothered to learn how it works. Using algorithms and methods
that they are too lazy to learn. Amateurs exist in many disciplines.
Many amateur astronomers, for example, like to build their own
telescopes. The equivalent here would be people writing their own
software. But they are too lazy to make the effort. Nor do they
seem willing to look at the existing software and make suggestions
about how to improve it. Amateur astronomers have some dedication
to their craft. They are willing to make a [i]sustained[/i] effort.

You claim that I am negative. OTOH::

I am sick of the screwed up [b]negative[/b] attitude of the participants herein
toward actually LEARNING ABOUT THIS SUBJECT. I am sick of the screwed
up [b]negative[/b] attitude of the participants herein that causes them to
deliberately ignore anything that requires a sustained effort. I am sick
of the requirement that people have for instant gratification.

I know all too well why many people avoid LL. It's the latency. TF produces
its output much more quickly. You get to see the small factors on a regular
basis. LL takes weeks or months and all you then see is 0 or 1.

People have admitted this in prior discussions.
They don't want to work on e.g. a BOINC project that takes
many many months to produce a difficult result because such an effort is
"boring". They don't get to see any "output" for a long time.

[i]You[/i] request that I leave these discussions. Who are you? What
have you contributed other than mindlessly running other people's code?
I, otoh, have contributed many published papers giving improvements
and analysis of the algorithms and methods that you cherish. I have
contributed code to those who ask. I only ask in return for comments
suggesting improvements. Guess what kind of replies I receive.
I have also given explanations in this
forum in reply to questions about how things work and been
[i]attacked[/i] for my answers from people who failed to understand them.
[i]I[/i] request that people learn the math behind what they do or else to
stop talking about it. You say that none of my posts generate enjoyment.
I say that your posts (and those of others) do not generate any
[b]enlightenment[/b].

What makes your requests any more valid than mine?

What you see as my negativity is nothing more than an effort on my
part o get people to think about their goals and the goals of the project
and use the available tools EFFICIENTLY toward those goals. I also
try to get people to stop kvetching about trivial matters that do not
affect those goals.

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;382658]What you see as my negativity is nothing more than an effort on my part o get people to think about their goals and the goals of the project and use the available tools EFFICIENTLY toward those goals[/QUOTE]
I approve of those goals, and have sometimes responded to help direct discussion these directions. But have you noticed that your standard approach to initiating these discussions is always interpreted as inflammatory rather than an invitation to discussion and learning? One or two failures to communicate effectively might be the fault of the other party, but dozens of such failures show a failure to recognize and change a ineffective technique.

[QUOTE=wblipp;382688]I approve of those goals, and have sometimes responded to help direct discussion these directions. But have you noticed that your standard approach to initiating these discussions is always interpreted as inflammatory rather than an invitation to discussion and learning? One or two failures to communicate effectively might be the fault of the other party, but dozens of such failures show a failure to recognize and change a ineffective technique.[/QUOTE]

The communication technique is known as the Socratic method. That other
people respond to it in a negative way is a reflection on [i]them[/i].

Call me Prof. Kingsfield.

I think one reason people see my questions is inflammatory is that after they read
a question they [i]recognize[/i] that the question points out an inadequacy in
what they are doing and hence they react with resentment, as if the question is
a direct threat to them.

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;382692]The communication technique is known as the Socratic method. That other
people respond to it in a negative way is a reflection on [i]them[/i].

Call me Prof. Kingsfield.

I think one reason people see my questions is inflammatory is that after they read
a question they [i]recognize[/i] that the question points out an inadequacy in
what they are doing and hence they react with resentment, as if the question is
a direct threat to them.[/QUOTE]

I think also that people react negatively to my comments and questions
because of a lack of intellectual maturity. I am not responsible for that.

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;382694]I think also that people react negatively to my comments and questions
because of a lack of intellectual maturity. I am not responsible for that.[/QUOTE]

But you are responsible for your tone. You also react negatively to others.

I think that a number of members on this forum show a lack of maturity when they debate. How does name-calling help a discussion? How do insults help a discussion? How does nitpicking others' words help a discussion? They don't, but I can name a number of people who are guilty of at least one of those things.

I can admit that I am not perfect, but when I was debating with "he should not be named" over a well known conjecture, I worked very hard to avoid his trolling. I would hope that everyone else on this forum could at least make an attempt to do the same when faced with someone that they tend to butt heads with.

[QUOTE=rogue;382696]But you are responsible for your tone. You also react negatively to others.

I think that a number of members on this forum show a lack of maturity when they debate. How does name-calling help a discussion? How do insults help a discussion? How does nitpicking others' words help a discussion? They don't, but I can name a number of people who are guilty of at least one of those things.

I can admit that I am not perfect, but when I was debating with "he should not be named" over a well known conjecture, I worked very hard to avoid his trolling. I would hope that everyone else on this forum could at least make an attempt to do the same when faced with someone that they tend to butt heads with.[/QUOTE]

Some people seem to react with instant knee-jerk hostility every time I say
anything that might remotely suggest that their ideas/notions/discussions are wrong.
Even when the questions are not remotely threatening they perceive
them as such. This comes from a lack of maturity. Intellectually honest
people do not react with hostility toward a question or hint that their ideas
might be wrong-headed.

Or is it just insecurity on their part? Are their beliefs so poorly founded that
they feel threatened if someone suggests that (by way of a question) that
they might be wrong???


And many of the innocent questions that I ask do
spark immediate hostile responses/taunts. Some of those questions are
posed in an effort to get people to [b]think about what they are doing[/b].
Maybe people just have an in-born resentment of such?

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;382658]

[snip]

What you see as my negativity is nothing more than an effort on my
part o get people to think about their goals and the goals of the project
and use the available tools EFFICIENTLY toward those goals. I also
try to get people to stop kvetching about trivial matters that do not
affect those goals.[/QUOTE]

I don't think that there is anyone here who doubts your passion about the subject and that you have a deep desire to learn as much as you can about the underlying principles.

That's absolutely great, it's [U]your [/U]time and money.

What is a problem though is that you won't accept as valid that other people [U]don't [/U]have as much interest as you do in the underlying principles or structures or algorithms.

I don't contribute to the project by way of number theory analysis or advances, I used to be a programmer but that was a long time ago.

How I have contributed is by donating 76,000+ days of cpu/gpu time to the project. That is [U]my choice[/U], you might not think it worthwhile but it is my time and money and therefore you have to respect it.

I'm going to presume that you drive a car.

When you get in it, turn the key, start it up and drive off, should the world berate you because you haven't inspected every line of code embedded, or know intimately how your car software works?

Perhaps you run a Linux box, have you inspected, read and digested the intricacies of every source module?

Do you have an Android device of some description? Have you examined the source code line by line to know how it works? or do you just accept the fact that it works and at the moment you feel no desire to dig any deeper?

Does that make you an idiot or imbecile?

Perhaps the rest of us are just content that the software works and wish to contribute in our own way.

[QUOTE=Gordon;382701]I don't think that there is anyone here who doubts your passion about the subject and that you have a deep desire to learn as much as you can about the underlying principles.

That's absolutely great, it's [U]your [/U]time and money.

What is a problem though is that you won't accept as valid that other people [U]don't [/U]have as much interest as you do in the underlying principles or structures or algorithms.
[/QUOTE]

And yet they, out of admitted ignorance, will sit and argue with me (as YOU
did) over technical points that you DO NOT UNDERSTAND. When the people
who [b]do[/b] have knowledge tell you that something is not worth doing DON'T ARGUE.

Put up (i.e. learn the subject) or shut up.


[QUOTE]
How I have contributed is by donating 76,000+ days of cpu/gpu time to the project. That is [U]my choice[/U], you might not think it worthwhile but it is my time and money and therefore you have to respect it.
[/QUOTE]

No. I do [b]NOT[/b] have to respect your blindly running code written by others.
(that by your own admission you not only do not understand, but refuse to TRY to understand).
It requires very little skill and very little effort. Why should it be respected?

Are you looking to have fun? Or are you looking for respect?




[QUOTE]
I'm going to presume that you drive a car.

When you get in it, turn the key, start it up and drive off, should the world berate you because you haven't inspected every line of code embedded, or know intimately how your car software works?
[/QUOTE]

This is a straw man. You put up a ridiculous analogy. It is ridiculous because
it goes from one extreme to another. One does not need to know EVERY
line of code or the exact functioning of every part. OTOH, my state does
require driver education and part of that education requires learning about
the basics of how a car works. You, OTOH, refuse to learn [b]anything[/b]
about the underlying math or algorithms.

[QUOTE]
Perhaps you run a Linux box, have you inspected, read and digested the intricacies of every source module?
[/QUOTE]

Again, a straw man. I know plenty about Linux internals, operating systems,
computer architecture, computer algorithms etc. I know how computers
work. One does not need to know EVERY source module. You, OTOH,
know virtually NOTHING about the internals of the software you use and
seem to be proud of that. ---> WILLFULLY IGNORANT.

[QUOTE]
Do you have an Android device of some description?
[/QUOTE]

I do not.

[QUOTE]
Does that make you an idiot or imbecile?

Perhaps the rest of us are just content that the software works and wish to contribute in our own way.[/QUOTE]

Yet you PRESUME TO ARGUE when people
who do understand how things work tell you something. You then proceed
out of arrogance to accuse them of not admitting they are wrong. You
react with knee-jerk taunts any time questions are asked. You seem personally
threatened by any suggestion that some computation might not be worth doing.

<plonk> Congrats. You just made my "ignore him, he is unteachable, ignorant,
and arrogant about it" list.

Go to it Charlie Gordon.

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;382702]And yet they, out of admitted ignorance, will sit and argue with me (as YOU
did) over technical points that you DO NOT UNDERSTAND. When the people
who [b]do[/b] have knowledge tell you that something is not worth doing DON'T ARGUE.
[/QUOTE]

I have knowledge about being a person trying to convince a person to stop what they want to do is not worth doing.

[QUOTE=science_man_88;382704]I have knowledge about being a person trying to convince a person to stop what they want to do is not worth doing.[/QUOTE]

Read:

[url]http://writing101.net/2008/09/09/a-willful-refusal-to-learn/[/url]

Trying to convince someone to stop doing something might be fruitless, but
I see no reason why fools should be suffered in silence.

You should also read Andre Toom's essay about the bad attitude possessed by
some people toward learning.

[url]http://michel.delord.free.fr/toom_russ.html[/url]

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;382702]When the people
who [b]do[/b] have knowledge tell you that something is not worth doing DON'T ARGUE.
[/QUOTE]

I agree with you in that if someone is trying to do the same thing as everyone else, but in an inefficient way, yes, you shouldn't argue with it and should do it. But in a case like this thread, where the goal is to try and find factors of a new number because people want to, and are interested in doing so, they aren't ignorant for it. They just have a different goal to the main goal of GIMPS. You seem not to understand this, and I have a fair bit of knowledge on this subject, so if you want to take your own advice, advise people who are interested only in the main goal of GIMPS out of their inefficient ways if they have them, but if people are interested in factoring or the like instead of the main goal of GIMPS, don't try to advise them out of it or advise them to contribute more to the main goal of GIMPS, because that's not what they're interested in doing at that moment of time.*

*Of course, if they are interested in factoring a number and are doing it in an inefficient way, it would be good to advise them to use a more efficient way. But don't try to change their goal, if that's what they are interested in doing with their CPU/GPU time, let them do it. In the vast majority of cases you will only succeed in annoying them anyway.