Star... MineCraft has to come off the CV
 

A bit of background for most of the people here who probably don't know me particularly well: I have recently graduated from Mechanical Engineering and despite all the promises made as little as a year and a half ago, finding work is difficult. This is just friction as far as entering the market is concerned; if I had even two years of experience, many doors would be open to me and I would be having little issue. For graduates, it's currently a bit difficult. The result is we're all throwing applications all over the place, and not getting much in the way of responses.

Luckily, my mother works with a lady whose husband is with Cameco, a company I would gladly join, and not just because it's some job. He was asking a bit about me and asked for my resume. He was kind enough to pass it around at work which means I've sort of skipped the computerized stage and I'm inside the loop, so to speak. He emphasized that I graduated with Great Distinction and if I apply myself to my career as much as I did to my education, which I intend to do, then I could be valuable.

He even had a bit of advice for the CV. The Professional Communication teachers at school had said that it should be kept short. We made one as part of the course, and I was recommended to cut mine down from 2 and a half pages. I always thought they were a bunch of idiots but I took their word on this one. The Cameco guy said it should be a bit longer and include more information. Hah! I plan to make these edits tomorrow as I send out another small batch of applications.

The second recommendation isn't something I can do quite so easily. The last heading on my CV is hobbies. One of them is StarCraft, a real-time strategy video game. I was even thinking of adding League of Legends, which is similar in a number of ways.

I put as much as I could without taking up too much space, to outline the fast pace of the game and the ongoing real-time decision making that goes on for twenty to thirty minutes, straight. I'm mentally exhausted after a few consecutive games, and even the people who make a living at the game need a few minutes between games, and exhaustion is a serious issue they need to deal with in best-of-sevens.

By the time Mom got the feedback to me, the phrasing was "Putting in video games makes you look like a loner," and though this is likely paraphrased, the message got through loud and clear. And I don't like it. Ironically, I've been putting more time into League of Legends because I know more people who play it, and it's fun to play with friends.

While I'm making my edits tomorrow, I'll try to make the video game entry look better. I'll add the team element of LoL and I'll emphasize more of the teamwork involved in my previous work experience. (I just think it's funny how as candidate employees we are supposed to be masters of teamwork yet independent and autonomous, and the employers are relying more on computers and less on people for the hiring process). After that, I'll put on my miserable-old-man hat and be as critical as possible about the mention of video games, and I might just scrap it entirely if I soil myself in my rocking chair.

I'm torn up about having to cut out from my resume a hobby that I grew up with.


Admittedly, I'm a bit upset about this, but I promise to be as objective as possible if anyone has feedback, regardless of your stance. That's something I'm not too bad at.

[RANT]

The situation is slowly getting better, but video games are clearly still a taboo among a great many people. "Video games" still sparks the image of a fat, balding, sweaty, obese man with terrible facial hair, in a short sleeved button-shirt with a pocket protector and thick glasses sitting at his computer playing Pac-Man for hours on end.

It doesn't spark image of a 5-day broadcast that millions tuned into at some point, and raised one million dollars for cancer research. Look up AGDQ 2014.

It doesn't spark the image of a sold-out staples center live audience (and 500,000 watching through the internet) for a League of Legends tournament. Fun fact: the Staples Center sold out this event months in advance. The Los Angeles Kings play there in less than 24 hours for what will likely be the last hockey game of the season, and win the Cup in front of their home crowd. 2,000 tickets left.

But only loners like video games, right?

(I won't be sorry to see anyone who believes that left behind when the world changes around them. League of Legends is not even 5 years old and its final event sells faster than hockey's final event. How many people watched and played basketball when it was 5 years old? Hint: the year was 1896)

[/RANT]

It makes no difference how demanding or cooperative video games are. The skills used are not viewed as conducive to helping you perform well in a work environment. And since a CV is intended to show you can work then you shouldn't be putting video games and other irrelevant fluff in there. People will think all your thoughts will be occupied at work thinking about playing games. If you have never worked then perhaps you will not be aware that playing games and working for a boss to a deadline are not remotely the same thing. So your mother was correct, video games make you look bad no matter how you try to spin it. And they will make you look worse the more you try to make it look like something worthwhile to an employer.

Retina gives good advice, and another way of looking at it is this:

Life for most people is compartmentalised. The compartments are all extremely important to you: your job, your hobbies, your love life and/or family, your personal friends and social life, your ideals and ambitions. While overlap between different compartments can sometimes occur, that is not the norm and when you are blindly applying for jobs you need to keep the CV concentrated on what will be relevant to the job compartment.

[QUOTE=TheMawn;375691]While I'm making my edits tomorrow, I'll try to make the video game entry look better.

I'm torn up about having to cut out from my resume a hobby that I grew up with.[/QUOTE]

The entire entry for your video gaming experience should read as "Hobbies: Playing video games, ... " Make sure you have other hobbies to list there as well. Otherwise, just cut it all out.

CV is not meant for your hobbies. It is meant to highlight your qualifications, like education and work experience. The hobbies section can be used to give the impression that you are a well rounded person. Don't give a blow-by-blow of your life there.

If a potential employer had read your rant, they might well get the impression that you're not a reliable worker, prone to shirking work and going for 5-day video game tournaments (I exaggerate, of course, but you get the point).

My humble opinion: put in your CV what your employer wants to read, not just what you think fits.as Retina said, the "hobby" sectin will measure your capacity to relate to the real world and other people. Playing music with a group and organizing charity meetings is good, while running, gaming, reading may show your lack of sensibility towards teamwork.

Luigi

Thanks, people. That is a different perspective which I had not really considered. I always found that I performed better in life in general when I could perform in the game, as it kept me sharp in general. On the other hand, I see where you're coming from.

I thought the "Hobbies" section was meant to show a bit more about who a person is, particularly outside of work. Why bother having it in the CV at all if showing what you have in your personal life is just going to make people think you can't focus on work when the time is right?

[QUOTE=TheMawn;375728]I thought the "Hobbies" section was meant to show a bit more about who a person is, particularly outside of work.[/QUOTE]

If I may share...

In my very first company (LateNight Development Corporation; there were six of us, all young and stupid) we all got obsessed with beating each other at a video game (Boulderdash).

We ended up wasting almost six man-months of time just to get past level 99 (and, thus, win).

I haven't played a video game since...

P.S. Google for "Amoeba invaders" for amusement... How I wasted my youth....

[QUOTE=chalsall;375738]If I may share...

In my very first company (LateNight Development Corporation; there were six of us, all young and stupid) we all got obsessed with beating each other at a video game (Boulderdash).

We ended up wasting almost six man-months of time just to get past level 99 (and, thus, win).

I haven't played a video game since...[/QUOTE]

I feel this relates to the Facebook creeping that some employers have been doing. I don't like Facebook. I only use it to communicate with people who won't use anything else to stay in touch. Sadly the same cannot be said for a few of my friends. If you look at pictures [B]of[/B] (read: not posted by me) me, you'll find some (from a long time ago) of people posing with my unconscious body or carrying it around the house. I've been that drunk exactly once in my life.

Plays video games =/= will waste hours on end at work playing video games.

Passed out at a party =/= is an unprofessional party drunk.

I understand that it is in the best interest of my professional career to hand out as little "bad" information as possible, but I also feel like we're being unfairly judged on any "bad" information that does get out.


Anyway, it's definitely a good example of why that might be something worth leaving out. I've gone and made the edits, so my resume is a bit longer, more focused on the teamwork aspects and I've translated my hobbies into skills and then cut out the entire hobby chunk.

Education.
Work experience.
Volunteer Work.
Skills.

Warning: NSFW! (Well, ...duh!)
 

This will help you with the job interview:
[YOUTUBE]BsxYfYCbVC0[/YOUTUBE]
...not

[QUOTE=TheMawn;375740]Passed out at a party =/= is an unprofessional party drunk.[/QUOTE]

Here's a trick I learnt from my current (long-term) girlfriend...

When in a social situation which involves alchohal, ask for the wine of your choice mixed with soda-water (50-50) and much ice (it's called a "Spritzer").

You'll be able to drink them all under the table.... :smile:

[QUOTE=TheMawn;375740]I've been that drunk exactly once in my life.[/QUOTE]
World to live by! In the ideal world (inhibited by infinitely smart people) everyone could say that. Because, occasionally, every person might drink just a bit more (if anything else - to experiment) until they get hangover, once. Then they will have learned their (all of that day confounded factors-adjusted) limit.

As the infamous saying goes, "You can't get [STRIKE]pregnant[/STRIKE] drunk the first time."

Of course, with drinking the opposite is true (with pregnancy, it is simply not true statistically, but not categorically): you will have no point of reference, you will try every drink, you will drink with every friend and will not pass on any toast, and you [B]will[/B] get drunk (especially with the conspiring friends). That's why any responsible parent should teach his kids to drink! (Har-dee-har, but seriously.) I am the one to talk. I tried many times - my kids won't yield to my teaching. ...Well, it's their loss. One day, they will regret it.

Incidentally, I've heard that the sneezing reaction to alcohol (or the alleged [I]unpleasant[/I] taste) is purely an induced mental construct. A toddler (or try a cat) will sniff vodka with interest and if asked to describe it will not usually say that it is horrible. It is after your first hangover that your mind alters your perception - for your own good, too. ;-)

[QUOTE=Batalov;375748]Incidentally, I've heard that the sneezing reaction to alcohol (or the alleged [I]unpleasant[/I] taste) is purely an induced mental construct. A toddler (or try a cat) will sniff vodka with interest and if asked to describe it will not usually say that it is horrible. It is after your first hangover that your mind alters your perception - for your own good, too. ;-)[/QUOTE]

Despite having never been drunk or hungover, I have an aversion to the smell of strong alcohol (e.g. rubbing alcohol). So I must disagree with your statement. :beer:
(I can't rule out some other causes - I've known for as long as I can remember that only adults should drink alcohol, so maybe that "I can't have it" turned into "it's unpleasant")

Well, I'm one of those infuriating fuckers who don't get hangovers. I've been drunk enough [B]to pass out[/B] once but I [I]have[/I] overdone it in a couple of additional instances. I feel fine by the next morning.

In fact, after this one particular event (during which I did vomit and everything), I slept for just eight hours, left the house, and stopped to play 18 holes of golf on my way to get breakfast!


I'm either lucky or smart. Whenever I have more more than five drinks in one evening, on my way to bed, I have a glass of water, then another, and another, until I feel like crap, and then one more. Your sleep is shitty if you're that drunk anyway, so having to wake up in the night to pee isn't hurting anything.

And you'd be surprised how little of the six cups of water actually tries to leave... Especially if you puked earlier.

[QUOTE=TheMawn;375763]I'm either lucky or smart.[/QUOTE]or simply: young and mostly healthy right now. Your body has greater tolerance for insults now than it will have in the future, but piling on the insults wears out the tolerance faster than moderation does.

- -

As for the CV, I agree with those who generally said: you need to change your perspective from that of a student to that of a prospective employer when crafting your CV.

[I]Prospective employers will consider your CV as your first exhibit of professional behavior. You better not treat it as only a hobby![/I]

No game mentions on the CV _unless_ you're applying for a position at a videogame company, and then be careful about your inclusions. Indeed, no mention of _any_ hobby unless you are _very, very_ sure (get a professional employment adviser's opinion) that a prospective employer would sincerely, realistically consider it _directly relevant_ to the job position you seek. ... Hmmm -- "Mechanical Engineering". Not a chance in your case. Do not mention games!

If you can't resist including a "hobby" section. it needs to be something like:

Designed, by myself, a 30-meter steel truss bridge, which was constructed, and can be inspected, at (location). (Copy of bridge designer certificate is enclosed) Certified as structurally sound with a xxx-tonne load limit for general public use by (professional engineer/official registered/licensed to issue such certifications, ID # xxxxx) -- copy of certificate enclosed.

or

Cite a school achievement, on which you were evaluated (capable of being double-checked by prospective employer) by faculty, that's as related as possible to your sought job position.

Note the common factor: real, verifiable achievements that received genuine professional approval/certification that is demonstrably documented.

- -

Note: all this advised work and attention to detail is necessary in a tight job market such as now ... IF you _genuinely_ want to find a _good-quality job that suits you_. Or, you can slack off and never know what you missed.

Sure, you could casually list all your hobbies, and if jobs were plentiful, few prospective employers would care, but ... [I]that was then, this is now[/I]. Face the job-market reality and the fierce competition from multiple other applicants, and act accordingly.

BTW, have you considered having your CV written by a professional CV-writer? If not, why not? The stakes are high -- a good, well-paid job that suits you, or just-any-old-job-you-can-get.

- - -

Mechanical engineering, eh?

Which bridge lasts longer:

the one located where it is subjected to frequent storms, heavy traffic, occasional earthquakes, yearly floods higher than its road deck

or

the identical one subjected to only occasional bad weather, light traffic, no seismic activity, no floods

?

Now, substitute:

"body" for "bridge"

"who frequently consumes substantial amounts of alcohol" for "located where it is subjected to frequent storms, heavy traffic ..."

"who consumes only small amounts of alcohol, infrequently" for "subjected to only occasional bad weather, light traffic, ..."

[QUOTE=cheesehead;375766]or simply: young and mostly healthy right now. Your body has greater tolerance for insults now than it will have in the future, but piling on the insults wears out the tolerance faster than moderation does.[/QUOTE]

I'm with Cheesehead here. Don't trust on that lasting forever.

I used to be able to go without sleep, nor food, for days. No longer. (My record for no sleep was 78 hours; no food was 9 days; but that was when I was in my twenties.)

Manage the situation.

Thanks, Cheesehead. I'm starting to see that the people from the Professional Communications center were actually borderline stupid. They were all about the hobbies section. In fact, I might have been hesitant to put it on a couple of years ago in the course and have been brainwashed since. Ah, well.

[QUOTE=TheMawn;375768]Thanks, Cheesehead. I'm starting to see that the people from the Professional Communications center were actually borderline stupid. They were all about the hobbies section. In fact, I might have been hesitant to put it on a couple of years ago in the course and have been brainwashed since. Ah, well.[/QUOTE]Well, another reality is that when you're fresh out of college, you probably won't have much job history. So you may need to say a carefully-crafted bit more about your job-relevant collegiate achievements than someone who does already have a substantial job history.

And when considering your first CV, it's awfully tempting to view your academic-and-maybe-skimpy-job-history achievements as thin. But filling out the page with irrelevant hobby detail only looks, to a prospective employer, like underbrush he has to cut through ... and he may well find it easier to go on to the next applicant.

Someone who's read hundreds of CVs will instantly recognize irrelevant padding intended only to fill out the page as a sign of non-professionalism.

Don't be afraid to have your just-out-of-school CV look somewhat lean. It will have done its purpose if it gets you an interview where the prospective employer will ask about what s/he really wants to know about you. OTOH, just a recitation of your degrees is too skinny -- hence my advice about choosing school achievement(s) you can highlight on this [I]beginner's[/I] CV, if possible. If you can just pique the prospective employer's interest with a slim description of a real achievement, that may be enough.

Prospective employers will give you some leeway for being just out of college with a good degree. They know you'll be raw; that's why they'll pay you less than they'd pay someone with more experience. (Maybe they were once raw college graduates looking for a first job?)

It may well be a matter of luck as to whether some detail in a CV gets a prospective employer's attention. That happened to me.

Ever read [I]What Color is Your Parachute?[/I] That author gives loads of advice, such as doing research on a prospective employer's company business. If you get an interview, it's definitely better to walk in knowing what the firm does than not knowing.

Remember -- your prospective employer will view your job-hunting presentation as your first-for-him/her example of the quality of your professional work. Neglecting to "Google" the company beforehand will bespeak of laziness.

- -

I've skipped mentioning cover letters ... only because that was a job-hunting weakness of mine. Please learn how to compose a good cover letter showing that you are somewhat aware of what the company does. I never did that; maybe I'd have had a better job somewhere along the line if I had. It was really important if one wanted to appear as a leading candidate among all the other job-seekers in my time.

I had some job-seeking luck that current-day job-seekers cannot count on.

[QUOTE=TheMawn;375768]Thanks, Cheesehead. I'm starting to see that the people from the Professional Communications center were actually borderline stupid. They were all about the hobbies section.[/QUOTE]

Perhaps that is indicative of what they had on their own CVs. "Those that don't communicate professionally, teach professional communications", the latest example of the Peter Principle in action.

I recall going to a similarly-ill-advice-laden confab for soon-to-be-graduates back when I was finishing up my PhD ... after the so-called expert advisors spent most of the hour-or-two blathering about touchy-feely "hobbies, life-broadening experiences and other interests" stuff on the ol' CV, I felt compelled to raise my hand and ask "what about competence in one's field?" That elicited much hemming and hawing.

But seriously, video game addiction is now being spun as a relevant CV item? O brave new world, that has such people in it.

[QUOTE=ewmayer;375770]But seriously, video game addiction is now being spun as a relevant CV item? O brave new world, that has such people in it.[/QUOTE]

As promised I am taking all feedback into account, but to be honest, I don't quite know what you're getting at here.

Oh and by the way, to whoever changed the thread title, quite clever, and hopefully nobody makes the mistake of putting Minecraft on the CV.

[QUOTE=cheesehead;375766]
If you can't resist including a "hobby" section. it needs to be something like:

Designed, by myself, a 30-meter steel truss bridge, which was constructed, and can be inspected, at (location). (Copy of bridge designer certificate is enclosed) Certified as structurally sound with a xxx-tonne load limit for general public use by (professional engineer/official registered/licensed to issue such certifications, ID # xxxxx) -- copy of certificate enclosed.[/QUOTE]That was deliberately unrealistic and overblown. Sorry.

What exactly, have you ever done yourself that required use of principles of mechanical engineering? Besides Tinkertoys and such -- something you designed/constructed?

Ever make an exhibit for a science fair that used ME principles? That's the sort of thing that might merit an eight-word CV phrase if you still have evidence (Take your science fair trophy in your briefcase to the job interview, but only take it out if the interviewer mentions "science fair" -- or maybe take it out anyway if you sense that the surprise would help you.)

BTW, [I]What Color is Your Parachute[/I] mentions out-of-the-box (in a different sense) stuff like that. Or, at least the copies I bought twenty-five years ago did.

(BTW, I'm just assuming that you seek a job doing some type of mechanical engineering. Not like a psychology major doing computer programming for a financial company. My colleague got a lot of ribbing after she revealed that.)

[QUOTE=TheMawn;375777]Oh and by the way, to whoever changed the thread title, quite clever, and hopefully nobody makes the mistake of putting Minecraft on the CV.[/QUOTE]For a non-gamer like myself whatever difference there is between starcraft and minecraft is lost on me. I would have just assumed they were mostly the same thing while reading your CV when you apply to be a minion.

[QUOTE=TheMawn;375777]and hopefully nobody makes the mistake of putting Minecraft on the CV.[/QUOTE]
Why? I would argue to that! Beside of the fact that I fully agree with what retina and cheesehead said above (yes, none of those games have a place in a CV, except for very particular cases), if I would be in the situation to chose between a "Starcraft player" employee and a "Minecraft player" employee, I would have no doubt and close the last. It is "strategy" against "ingenuity", and "ability to plan ahead" against "thinking out of the box". It is the ability to command an army (in Starcraft you spawn a lot of minions and put them to do things for you), against the persistence and intelligence (in Minecraft you are wondering around alone "inventing" cute/useful things). Of course, for a management position I might reconsider. I like strategy games, but in my company, is not a strategist what I need, but an intelligent worker with a good attitude. For the records, I didn't play Starcraft since the "Brood War" generation (was it 18 years ago?), it is still one of my favorite games, together with the (classical) Warcraft from which was derived, and I never played Minecraft, except for watching my girl playing it (and kibitzing) before she discovered smartphones, but if I would be an employer, from the two guys (the Starcraft player and the Minecraft player) I would prefer the guy who plays Minecraft. There is a long motivation of "why", let's say for a start that in my company I would prefer to do the strategy myself and let the minions, as retina said, to find solutions. But not only.

There's a delicate balance with the application process for a job. Joel Spolsky has a popular software engineer blog, which has posts on [url="http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/SortingResumes.html"]resumes[/url] and [url="http://www.joelonsoftware.com/articles/GuerrillaInterviewing3.html"]interviews[/url] that are also applicable to engineering jobs.

TheMawn, this will not be the last time that getting along will require some kind of compromise on your part. If proficiency with games becomes more acceptable to employers, you may just have to be satisfied with being right.

As a coworker and friend once asked me, 'is this the hill you want to die on?'

[QUOTE=jasonp;375811]

TheMawn, this will not be the last time that getting along will require some kind of compromise on your part. If proficiency with games becomes more acceptable to employers, you may just have to be satisfied with being right.

As a coworker and friend once asked me, 'is this the hill you want to die on?'[/QUOTE]

This, yes, a thousand times, yes.

Of course, this is problem with HR depts in general. The science is pretty clear that video game players develop better resource and time management skills than non-gamers. There are other less proven benefits as well, that may include spatial reasoning and memory.

There are also people with addictive personalities who waste a lot of time gaming, so it's not all Shangril-La.

If you were applying for a job at a young tech company putting gaming as a hobby might be viewed positively. If you were applying for a job in South Korea, Starcraft might be a necessity.

[QUOTE=chappy;375816]The science is pretty clear that video game players develop better resource and time management skills than non-gamers.[/QUOTE]
Links? And the multi-day binges that appear to be common amongst the gamers at my local WiFI cafe argue against "better time management skills".

[QUOTE]There are other less proven benefits as well, that may include spatial reasoning and memory.[/QUOTE]
Because less-designed-to-be-addictive activities like mechanical tinkering and playing chess or bridge don't have those aspects?

Most of the alleged "benefits" of video gaming I've seen strike me as self-referential ... "playing X is shown to lead to improved skils at playing X."

Now if one is applying for a job at a game-SW outfit, fine. Otherwise you might just as well put "my adult fetish and bondage hobby helps me develop better time management and interpersonal skills ... I have to accept that I'm not always in charge and learn to cooperate..."

[QUOTE=ewmayer;375843]Because less-designed-to-be-addictive activities like mechanical tinkering and playing chess or bridge don't have those aspects?
[/QUOTE]

Would you like to have a game of Go sometime?

I'm actually quite shitty at it, but I appreciate that Go is to Chess as Chess is to Checkers.

[QUOTE=ewmayer;375843]Otherwise you might just as well put "my adult fetish and bondage hobby helps me develop better time management and interpersonal skills ... I have to accept that I'm not always in charge and learn to cooperate..."[/QUOTE]

Interesting that you assume you'd be in the submissive situation.... :wink:

[QUOTE=ewmayer;375843]Links? And the multi-day binges that appear to be common amongst the gamers at my local WiFI cafe argue against "better time management skills".[/QUOTE]

Don't confuse time management in a project setting with life management. Would you apply the same criteria to the lawyer who spends 90 hours a week at work?

[QUOTE=ewmayer;375843]
Because less-designed-to-be-addictive activities like mechanical tinkering and playing chess or bridge don't have those aspects?
[/QUOTE]

strawman. Nowhere did I or anyone else in this thread imply that these benefits only occured with video games. You made that up in your head.


[QUOTE=ewmayer;375843]
Most of the alleged "benefits" of video gaming I've seen strike me as self-referential ... "playing X is shown to lead to improved skils at playing X."
[/QUOTE]

Congratulations, those are none of the benefits we are talking about and so I don't see how they can be referred to as 'the alleged "benefits"' in this context.

[QUOTE=ewmayer;375843]
Now if one is applying for a job at a game-SW outfit, fine. Otherwise you might just as well put "my adult fetish and bondage hobby helps me develop better time management and interpersonal skills ... I have to accept that I'm not always in charge and learn to cooperate..."[/QUOTE]

Thanks for proving my point that HR at traditional corps don't get it. And for implying that you don't understand the nature of gaming culture or games.


As for links? Let me google that for you:

[url]http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/24295515[/url]

[url]http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/11/07/video-games-good-for-us_n_4164723.html[/url]

[url]http://www.scientificamerican.com/article/why-gaming-could-be-the-future-of-education/[/url]

If I had two equally qualified candidates and one played certain games (a set of which Starcraft would certainly be a member) and the other did not, that would be enough for me to give them the advantage. [COLOR="White"]Although I wouldn't rule out the person with the adult bondage fetish/hobby.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=chappy;375849]

strawman. Nowhere did I or anyone else in this thread imply that these benefits only occured with video games. You made that up in your head.

[/QUOTE]

Hmm. re-reading my [URL="http://mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=375816&postcount=26"]previous post (the one before the quoted one)[/URL] I used language that implied video gamers were better than non-gamers without the understanding that these tests compared the same students before and after video games. not two separate classes.

If that's the way you read it, I apologize. Perhaps I should play some text based games to improve my writing skills.

[QUOTE=chalsall;375848]Interesting that you assume you'd be in the submissive situation.... :wink:[/QUOTE]

I didn't want to come off as an elitist...

My parents hosted an evening to celebrate my graduation tonight, with a larger group consisting of family and friends (the one we did a week and a bit ago was with just my friend's family). Among the guests was a guy who works in sales consulting and has done a LOT of interviews and looked at a LOT of resumes and his reaction was "Some 'professional' told you that it would be a good idea, right?" right before I was able to add that "some 'professional' told me it would be a good idea."

The discussion has shifted to whether or not video games (certain ones) can be an asset and I will for the rest of my days assert that yes, but I've understood that I've been mislead into believing that, among other things, employers give a shit about my passtimes outside of work. The guy I was speaking with said that they probably do care, but that's what an interview is for.

If someone asks in my interview what my hobbies are, I'll talk about the outdoorsy stuff first like biking and swimming, and second will certainly be the strategic thinking games, among which sits Starcraft and I'll have a much better idea to explain why I like it and how I credit it with keeping me sharp. He completely agrees with that approach.


LaurV has experience with both Starcraft and Minecraft, and I have (extensively :davieddy:) played both.

Starcraft is real-time strategy. I like to start with Chess in my explanation, because most people have an idea of what that is. The key differences are:[LIST][*]Real-time strategy as opposed to turn-based strategy. Your pieces move as fast as you can issue orders[*]Starcraft has an economy. You have limited resources which you can devote to gathering more resources, building a larger military (you start with zero fighting units) or upgrading and specializing your infrastructure. An early military cripples your economic progress but punishes an opponent focusing too much on economy. Which path do you choose?[*]Chess players start with a limited number of pieces and they are identical. Starcraft has three separate races, each of which plays radically differently. To keep the Chess analogy going, invent new movement rules for Black's pieces and play the game again. Perhaps Black gets four extra rooks and bishops, but they kill themselves when they capture an enemy piece, and can only move four spaces in any direction instead of eight? Or perhaps Black gets no pawns but any piece can move a second time in one turn if they capture a piece?[*]Chess has six types of units and 16 units total per side. Starcraft has about 16 unit types [I]per race[/I] and as many as four hundred on the map at any time, and they constantly die and are constantly replaced with what you think is a better choice, assuming your economy is strong enough to afford to rebuild your army.[*]Typical chess rules allow for one minute per move, plus 40 minutes. Starcraft is "as fast as you can"; the pros make 400-600 button presses or mouse clicks per minute, and each one either selects a unit or group of units, or issues a command to the selection.[/LIST]

Minecraft is a game set in a world made of cubes, which are, for the sake of reference, a cubic meter in volume. Your character occupies a 1x1x2 space. Dirt "blocks" can be dug up with a shovel, stone "blocks" can be mined with a pickaxe, tree "blocks" can be chopped down with an axe, etc. There are also "ore" blocks which can be processed to make other things. For example, in the "crafting" interface, eight stone blocks placed in a square around an empty middle space can create a furnace (also a 1x1x1 block) which can convert iron ore into an iron ingot, using fuel (wood from a downed tree, or coal also mined from the ground) which is then converted into some sort of tool, for example.

The tools give you different options, many of which are provided by members of the community who have created mods for the game, adding pipes and pumps, electricity and more complex machines, etc. If you're bored of clicking on blocks in a hole in the ground to get enough stone to make your big castle (only clinically insane people don't get bored), then you could build a mining machine which mines for you, so you can spend your time building instead of gathering. (There is a game mode that has no gathering and provides you with all the blocks you want so you can get straight to building if the rags-to-riches adventure does not suit you)


Frankly, I've gotten bored of Minecraft. I've built a scale replica of the main building at Chichen-Itza, a half-scale replica of the great Pyramid, and a ten-floor maze, among other things. I preferred managing the logistics of having two dozen mining machines feeding me more ore than I can process and having to balance the processing power at different stages and the power to feed the entire machine.

I prefer Starcraft and I would bet on the Starcraft player being smarter, more accurate and faster than the Minecraft player, but maybe less creative and slightly less outside-the-box.

While Chris' story is fairly relevant, he also passes judgement on something he hasn't done in twenty years. I would give today's avid Starcraft player much more credit than thirty years ago's avid Pac-Man player. Anyone who says playing Chess is great but playing strategy video games is bad has their head so far up their ass they're choking on their own hair. Alternatively, they're so far in the past that they [I]have[/I] hair :razz:

[QUOTE=TheMawn;375874]Starcraft is real-time strategy. I like to start with Chess in my explanation, because most people have an idea of what that is. The key differences are:
[*]Real-time strategy as opposed to turn-based strategy. Your pieces move as fast as you can issue orders[/QUOTE]
An artificial construct designed to maximize addiction - in the real world and in real military strategy, "haste makes waste" is extremely important, i.e. there is a constantly shifting situational optimum which punishes both excessive slowness and speed.
[QUOTE][*]Starcraft has an economy. You have limited resources which you can devote to gathering more resources, building a larger military (you start with zero fighting units) or upgrading and specializing your infrastructure. An early military cripples your economic progress but punishes an opponent focusing too much on economy. Which path do you choose?[/QUOTE]
One learns similar lessons cooking a meal, and in the end, if successful, one at least ends up with a meal.
[QUOTE][*]Chess players start with a limited number of pieces and they are identical. Starcraft has three separate races, each of which plays radically differently. To keep the Chess analogy going, invent new movement rules for Black's pieces and play the game again. Perhaps Black gets four extra rooks and bishops, but they kill themselves when they capture an enemy piece, and can only move four spaces in any direction instead of eight? Or perhaps Black gets no pawns but any piece can move a second time in one turn if they capture a piece?
[*]Chess has six types of units and 16 units total per side. Starcraft has about 16 unit types [I]per race[/I] and as many as four hundred on the map at any time, and they constantly die and are constantly replaced with what you think is a better choice, assuming your economy is strong enough to afford to rebuild your army.[/QUOTE]
You confuse piece complexity with strategic complexity. "Calvinball" has complex rules, too.
[quote][*]Typical chess rules allow for one minute per move, plus 40 minutes. Starcraft is "as fast as you can"; the pros make 400-600 button presses or mouse clicks per minute, and each one either selects a unit or group of units, or issues a command to the selection.[/QUOTE]
...because hyperactive repetitive mouse-clicking teaches useful real-world skills, no doubt. (And chess has tournament and blitz modes, btw).

Again, it's great that you enjoy your viddy games, but I fail to see anything relevant to real-world work, even to gaming software development (as opposed to game testing), except in terms of having an idea of what kinds of game elements best foster addiction.

[QUOTE=ewmayer;375878]I fail to see anything relevant to real-world work[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=ewmayer;375878]An artificial construct designed to maximize addiction - in the real world and in real military strategy, "haste makes waste" is extremely important, i.e. there is a constantly shifting situational optimum which punishes both excessive slowness and speed.[/QUOTE]

By all means. In Chess, they had to [I]add[/I] something to punish excessive slowness, but otherwise it's entirely true and I'm not saying it isn't. Just like everything, Starcraft is not all about speed, but it will punish you for being too much slower than the opposition. It's a question of judging the tradeoff between speed and accuracy.

In the real world and in real military strategy, you'll have an entire room full of people planning an attack for weeks and there are probably less soldiers on the ground than armchair generals planning the strike. And for sure, if you have the resources at your disposal, by all means use them. Starcraft just stresses the machine differently. You have extremely limited planning capacity (one guy with mere seconds vs two dozen tacticians with months) and it's an exercise in doing as much as you can with what little you have.

Here's an example. The opponent has three fronts, all of which are weak. Do I split my force into three and attack each one simultaneously albeit in a somewhat sloppy manner, or do I focus on one much more accurately controlled push? Within seconds, the environment might change and the right decision will change with it. All the while, I have to manage my infrastructure, keep production up, and anticipate and respond to any of his counter-play.


[QUOTE=ewmayer;375878]You confuse piece complexity with strategic complexity. "Calvinball" has complex rules, too.[/QUOTE]

You're confused because you fail to see that piece complexity breeds strategic complexity. Where do you think the Chess vs Checkers comparison comes from? One (you can make a case for two) variety of pieces. It is [I]strategically[/I] less complex because there is less strategy to be developed from a very constrained framework.

Calvinball has complex rules but those rules just constrain the framework of the game.


[QUOTE=ewmayer;375878]...because hyperactive repetitive mouse-clicking teaches useful real-world skills, no doubt. (And chess has tournament and blitz modes, btw).[/QUOTE]

I never said that Chess is bad. I enjoy a game of Chess, too. And for similar and different reasons. Where Chess teaches you to think ahead and manage your turn-based "time" (I have to do this, this and this before that happens), Starcraft teaches you to make decisions as quickly and accurately as possible by punishing you for acting too slowly or not accurately enough.


Any activity that is exhausting in some manner is some form or training. You're tired after a long jog? Next time, your endurance will be slightly better. Your arms are sore after a canoe trip? Next time, your arms will be slightly bigger and stronger. You're mentally exhausted after a game of Starcraft? Next time, the decisions will come more easily and you'll have more mental endurance.

Maybe if you sit around all day, stronger arms stronger cardio are not "useful life skills" but as a person whose brain is their biggest asset, I don't think I should have to explain to you that any activity that makes it faster and gives it more stamina is helpful.

[QUOTE=TheMawn;375912]Any activity that is exhausting in some manner is some form or training. You're tired after a long jog? Next time, your endurance will be slightly better. Your arms are sore after a canoe trip? Next time, your arms will be slightly bigger and stronger. You're mentally exhausted after a game of Starcraft? Next time, the decisions will come more easily and you'll have more mental endurance.[/QUOTE]
Good examples - but, whereas physical activity has been widely demonstrated to improve not just physical health but also cognitive functioning, the claims you make about gaming are [url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brain_fitness]at best disputed[/url]:
[quote]Brain fitness can be measured physically at the cellular level by neurogenesis, the creation of new neurons, and increased functional connections of synapses and dendrites between neurons. It can also be evaluated by behavioral performance as seen in cognitive reserve, improved memory, attention, concentration, executive functions, decision-making, mental flexibility, and other core capabilities.

Like physical fitness, brain fitness can be improved by various challenging activities such as practicing sports,[18] playing chess or bridge, dancing regularly, practicing yoga and tai chi and also by engaging in more structured computer based workouts.[19] Some research shows that brain stimulation can help prevent age-related cognitive decline, reverse behavioral assessment declines in dementia and Alzheimer’s[20][21][22] and can also improve normally functioning minds.[23] In experiments, comparing some computer based brain boosting exercises to other computer based activities, brain exercises were found to improve attention and memory in people over age 60.[24][25] Other studies have evaluated other brain boosting exercises and not found improvements. [u]A study of 67 schoolchildren aged 10 compared 7 week Nintendo brain training to engaging in pen and paper puzzles. The study found that the brain training group suffered a 17 percent decrease in memory tests after the seven-week course, while the pen and paper group saw an increase of 33 percent[/u].[26] Some experts are skeptical with regard to the real value of particular commercial brain boosting products. For example, a panel of experts gathered by Which? Magazine have concluded that ‘Dr Kawashima’s Brain Training’ for the Nintendo DS will not enhance brainpower at all.[27] However, other researchers underline the growing amount of studies indicating that some commercial brain training products have shown measurable results in improving various cognitive skills.[28][29][30][/quote]
And even if you claim from personal experience that playing Starcraft improves your cognitive performance in the ways you mention, do you have evidence that those boosts apply to other kinds of mental challenges? Like those you face in the kind of work you're applying for, for instance?

[QUOTE]Maybe if you sit around all day, stronger arms stronger cardio are not "useful life skills" but as a person whose brain is their biggest asset, I don't think I should have to explain to you that any activity that makes it faster and gives it more stamina is helpful.[/QUOTE]
As a potential employer, I would consider evidence of a healthy overall life/work balance useful. And since the kinds of physical exertions you mention tend to be self-limiting in most people - which is reflected in the fact that the western world is suffering from an obesity epidemic and tech-addiction much more than it is from "ultramarathon addiction" - someone putting "canoeing" as a hobby on their CV would worry me much less than "World of Warcraft" in terms of "does this have the potential to distract the person from their work?" Multiday canoeing binges are quite rare compared to gaming ones, methinks.

Hey, look - way back when I was in grad school me and a half-dozen of my fellow PhD candidates who made heavy use of the department compute lab got sucked into a very addictive ascii-based D&D-style game called "nethack". (Primitive interface, but endless complexity in-game.) Spent probably 3-4 months of my life playing that almost full-time. Addictive fun? Hell, yeah. Did it help me in my PhD work? Well, let's just say that any cognitive boosts from playing the game were more than negated by the distraction-from-work aspects.

One could put Project Euler on the CV. But then again, maybe not. (The employer will have a look only to see that the website is down.)

Brainbench - quite likely, and [I]not[/I] as a hobby.

[QUOTE]...piece complexity breeds strategic complexity...[/QUOTE]

[trolling]
The game of Go has (arguable) the most complex strategy known, and it is one of the few (the single?) games where, due to the complexity of the strategy, a computer does not stand a chance against a good player. (I am an average Go player, and I still can beat the strongest computer programs, without any doubt, i.e. not like in chess where the computer still wins many or most games).

However, Go has only one type of pieces, and you don't do too much with them... :razz:
[/trolling]

[QUOTE=ewmayer;375917]Hey, look - way back when I was in grad school me and a half-dozen of my fellow PhD candidates who made heavy use of the department compute lab got sucked into a very addictive ascii-based D&D-style game called "nethack". (Primitive interface, but endless complexity in-game.) Spent probably 3-4 months of my life playing that almost full-time. Addictive fun? Hell, yeah. Did it help me in my PhD work? Well, let's just say that any cognitive boosts from playing the game were more than negated by the distraction-from-work aspects.[/QUOTE]Been there, done that, got the tee-shirt.

I've vowed never again to install nethack on any of my computers.

Just in case you didn't see this- here's an article from the CNN money pages called "Why I put World of Warcraft on my resume".

[URL="http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/19/technology/world-of-warcraft-resume/index.html"]http://money.cnn.com/2014/06/19/technology/world-of-warcraft-resume/index.html[/URL]

Not that I agree- I probably see 2 or 3 resumes a week crossing my desk, and most managers I know shy away from people who put too much emphasis on hobbies in the resume. During the interview, no problem, but not in the resume.

Norm

He's not your average player applying for an entry-level job - this is a guild master applying for executive, CIO of Starbucks, COO of Symantec.
[QUOTE] Gillett said he includes his World of Warcraft achievements on his resume, because it's not just about role-playing games. It shows he exercises leadership in both the physical and virtual realms. Plus, he understands the current societal fascination with earning points and interactive entertainment.

As a guild master, his current duties and responsibilities include organizing dungeon raids and managing the group's virtual bank. And he has a knack for recruiting key talent. Think mages and warlocks.[/QUOTE]