Mersenne Rig
 

Hi friends,
I am really excited to be here today. I computed Mersenne numbers in 2001 as a freshmen in college, and with the mild success of my recent startup I'm really excited to get crunching again. I have a PRIME95 poster up in my hallway :)

Here is my current order on NewEgg
CPU: Intel Core i7-4770K Haswell 3.5GHz LGA 1150
Mobo: MSI Z87-G41 PC Mate
Memory: Kingston HyperX Blu 2GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600
Cooler: CORSAIR Hydro series H50 High Performance Liquid CPU Cooler
PSU: Rosewill FORTRESS-450 450W 80 Plus Platinum

Questions:
Is Linux or Windows better? 32-bit or 64-bit? I plan on overclocking the CPU and running it headless. Does anybody have any experience with setting up a headless 64-bit linux install of Prime95? Is it stable to run off CD or USBdrive, or do you suggest an actual HDD?

Looking forward,
Simon

[QUOTE=simon389;351090]Hi friends,
I am really excited to be here today. I computed Mersenne numbers in 2001 as a freshmen in college, and with the mild success of my recent startup I'm really excited to get crunching again. I have a PRIME95 poster up in my hallway :)

Here is my current order on NewEgg
CPU: Intel Core i7-4770K Haswell 3.5GHz LGA 1150
Mobo: MSI Z87-G41 PC Mate
Memory: Kingston HyperX Blu 2GB 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 1600
Cooler: CORSAIR Hydro series H50 High Performance Liquid CPU Cooler
PSU: Rosewill FORTRESS-450 450W 80 Plus Platinum

Questions:
Is Linux or Windows better? 32-bit or 64-bit? I plan on overclocking the CPU and running it headless. Does anybody have any experience with setting up a headless 64-bit linux install of Prime95? Is it stable to run off CD or USBdrive, or do you suggest an actual HDD?

Looking forward,
Simon[/QUOTE]

Hi Simon, welcome back,

As you probably can understand there has been great improvements to several software groups within the Mersenne project.
* Haswell introduces new instruction set which boosts the iteration time tremendously.
* CudaLucas has improved for GPU computing, and can LL check a prime in days, rather in a month with normal CPUs.

Your rig is Haswell, great CPU, I have considered it myself, just I dont have GPU ready for it yet, so I am considering the Nvidia Titan Ultra when it comes out with 2 GPU cores per card..

But for low cost LL testing, your platform is great.

I would run with HD, just get a 250gb harddrive as then you can experiment with GPU computing too if you get hold of a used Nvidia GTX 590 card (2x gpus on that card). also cheap second hand now.

Whats fun with Mersenne project is that you can take different hardware platforms and test out different pieces of software:
* Prime 95 with different CPUs - overclocking etc..
* CudaLucas with Nvidia GPU's 5xx,6xx,7xx series and their benefits.
* MfaktC for Nvidia GPU's - Trial factoring for lower end cards Nvidia 64-660 etc..
* MfaktO for ATI/AMD cards which BDOT did a great improvement during spring and summer.. basically a 6970 card can get 230 ghz days per day just trial factoring now.
* P-1 project (Havent done this myself yet.)
* GPUto72 project - GPU does trial factoring to higher bit levels.. fun project.


Linux or Windows, well, if you choose to spend time with GPU's and overclocking those, Windows is the best as you can download EVGA Precision to do this.

If you choose only to stay with CPU work, then Linux will have you get into more fun as it is a technically more advanced platform than Windows..

You are probably going to have fun with your platform, just try to get hold of some Nvidia graphics card. The 580 or 590 would be cheap and great second hand.

That pc will be rather memory bound. I would suggest DDR3-2133 or even better DDR3-2400. Basically because of the new instructions the cpu maxes out the memory bandwidth. There won't be much of a difference running 1 core but as far as I know DDR3-1600 won't be able to support much more than 2 cores worth of throughput(maybe 2.5. I don't own this sort of hardware).

Did you plan to run with only 2 GB of RAM? I guess not, as you asked for DDR3, but that is not clear from the contest.

Also, if you plan to add a GPU, you should buy a more powerful PSU.

Luigi

I would make a few suggestions, but let me ask you two things:

[strike]Do you plan to overclock?[/strike] :facepalm: Sorry, just read it.
Do you plan to have a GPU(in the future)?

EDIT: [URL="http://mersenneforum.org/member.php?u=7654"][COLOR=green]henryzz[/COLOR][/URL]: My Dual IB is [I]really[/I] memory-bottlenecked by one 1600 4 GB.

I will admit I do not do a lot of prime95 work, but I have built quite a few computers. People talk about memory bandwidth being an issue (e.g. many of the posts above as well as elsewhere on the forum), and the LGA 2011 with quad-channel has a lot more memory bandwidth than the LGA 1155 or LGA 1150. I have a 3930K and a 3770K and the 3930K is definitely a better choice for maximizing computation. Admittedly it costs more and the 3770K is a nice CPU, but I think the extra 2 cores + double the memory bandwidth makes it significantly faster and better able to take advantage of hyperthreading for some apps (because of less memory contention).

Manpowre brings up some new instructions in Haswell, which means waiting for the 4930K launching next month would be advisable if you wanted to go the LGA2011 route.

The 4770K is fine, it's cheaper overall than LGA2011 MB + 4930K, it uses less power, you only need 2 sticks of RAM instead of 4, and if most of the work is done via GPU then the difference may not matter. For the GPU work I suspect number theory apps have a lot less GPU<->host memory bottlenecks than the fluid dynamics I was doing.


PSU: I won't buy anything but Seasonic any more. Quality, quiet, efficient. Not cheap though -- I usually wait for a Newegg sale. I'd get a Seasonic SS-660XP2 personally even at $120 vs. $90 (the extra power capacity would also be nice for a GPU). Read some reviews. If you were dreaming of a Titan Ultra you might even want to go a little higher (e.g. Seasonic 760XP2, albeit pricy at $145). I occasionally got suckered into trying cheap stuff because of great newegg sales, and have regretted most of them afterwards (one of them is still working fine, but it's so freaking loud it has to be in another room -- if it wasn't in a server I'd have trashed it).

I'm fairly happy with the Corsair H100 coolers I'm running on two of my machines. The H50 is only half of those, but it may depend on how much you want to overclock, and of course the 4770K dissipates less heat than the 3930K.

I'll join everyone else in thinking you might want faster memory. 8GB minimum these days. (I can't help but bring up LGA 2011 again for everyone who is pointing out faster memory and doesn't know about the quad channel memory it has).

Personally I'd get a hard drive. I used a USB for a little Pogobox once and it was horrendously slow. I've run a machine off a CD, and I suppose you could mount a network drive, but it wouldn't be my choice even for a headless server. Admittedly as I upgrade hard drives in my machines I always have a growing pile of old ones to use for small projects. Buying new, sadly almost everything ends up being between $60 and $130 so there isn't a lot of savings by getting a small or slow drive vs. a decent 1TB one. OTOH there are some deals like $33 for a refurbished 500GB drive (vs. brand new 500GB for $60 or 1TB for $70).

4930K will be Ivy Bridge, not Haswell. Intel has some confusing naming methods.

Prime95 cannot use hyperthreading, save a little money and get a CPU without hyperthreading. It should also run a little cooler.

Two sticks of at least DDR3-2400 is a must. Prime95 will still be bandwidth limited at that speed.

You might want to read through the "Haswell benchmark" thread.

So, if I'm reading this correctly, the general consensus is better RAM and PSU. Can you link to a few NewEgg pages for me to order?

Can my mobo use DDR3-2400 Ram?

I'm not going to crunch with the GPU, CPU only. Influenced by this post: [url]http://www.overclock.net/t/1212493/folding-power-consumption-post-your-experiences-consider-this-for-your-system-before-commiting-to-folding-24-7[/url]

Trying to keep the power bill as low as possible. Planning on going headless linux CPU only, though I am open to being convinced :D

Oh, and I am totally fine with waiting till the new Ivy Bridge launches.

[quote=Kracker]4930K will be Ivy Bridge, not Haswell. Intel has some confusing naming methods.[/quote]Gah, you're right. No AVX2 or FMA3. Haswell-E in 2014 :(.

[QUOTE=Prime95;351157]Prime95 cannot use hyperthreading, save a little money and get a CPU without hyperthreading. It should also run a little cooler.[/quote]Only if prime95 is the only app you ever intend to run. The 3930K would give you an extra 2 cores and double the memory bandwidth, but that would probably be outweighed by the missing Haswell new instructions for those apps that use them.

[QUOTE=simon389;351162]So, if I'm reading this correctly, the general consensus is better RAM and PSU. Can you link to a few NewEgg pages for me to order?

Can my mobo use DDR3-2400 Ram?

I'm not going to crunch with the GPU, CPU only. Influenced by this post: [URL]http://www.overclock.net/t/1212493/folding-power-consumption-post-your-experiences-consider-this-for-your-system-before-commiting-to-folding-24-7[/URL]

Trying to keep the power bill as low as possible. Planning on going headless linux CPU only, though I am open to being convinced :D[/QUOTE]

What is your budget range?

[QUOTE=danaj;351174]The 3930K would give you an extra 2 cores and double the memory bandwidth, but that would probably be outweighed by the missing Haswell new instructions for those apps that use them.[/QUOTE]

Memory bandwidth is more important than the new instructions. However, Intel charges a pretty penny for those 6-core beasts.

[QUOTE=simon389;351162]Can you link to a few NewEgg pages for me to order?[/QUOTE]

My Haswell components are listed in the 38th post of [url]http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=17982[/url]

Prices and deals change though, so you are apt to find more cost-efficient components if you search.

Hi! Glad to hear of a new member with commitment. Some of my comments have been touched on already but I will try to elaborate a bit.
[LIST][*]Lucas Lehmer tests will in fact not take advantage of hyperthreading which will save you as far as money and heat is concerned; heat in particular, since you want to overclock. Are we talking some moderate 4.0 GHz or a more serious 4.6+ GHz overclock? Make sure your cooling is up to the task. A Hyper 212 is a good start, though my i5-3570k is at 4.6GHz on an H80i and the temperatures are about as high as I would like already.
[*]Memory bandwidth is a huge factor, especially with a faster architecture and this is further yet amplified by the fact that you want to overclock. I have [URL="http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231589"]this 2400 MHz memory[/URL], myself and it's already not quite enough for a 3570k @ 4.6 GHz on four cores. It could use about 20% more speed. Part of me is salivating over [URL="http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231595"]this 2666 MHz memory[/URL].
[*]To get around the memory bandwidth limitation, you may wish to consider the "enthusiast" line of processors which use quad channel memory instead of dual channel memory. I don't know that the speeds can be matched, but you're doubling the bandwidth already, so even a slight decrease in frequency would allow you to run six workers instead of four, and have them completely fed.
[*]I would urge you to consider GPU computing. A GPU doesn't consume as much power as you think. My GTX 660 Ti consumes roughly 105W and is seven times more productive than my [I]overclocked[/I] i5, in GHz-Days terms. Not nearly as good for LL tests but amazing for trial factoring.
[*]A better power supply might be a good idea. Particularly if you plan to run a GPU or two, or three. I'm running an i5, a GTX 670 and a GTX 660 Ti, all overclocked to their limits, on a 750W and I think I have room to spare. I have seen Three Way SLI GTX 660 Ti done on 750W.
[*]Biggest consideration is budget. My guess is you know this very well already.[/LIST]

For quad channel RAM, hexacore juiciness and a much bigger bill from Newegg, get [URL="http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820231503"]this quad-channel set of memory[/URL] for example. I don't know if 2400 MHz will be attainable or even necessary. Also, you might want [URL="http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181032"]a powerful CPU cooler[/URL] since your CPU will now have a TDP likely nearer 150W than 100W.

Note the processor and motherboard will also run you $200 more than their non-enthusiast lineup equivalents.


For the standard dual channel setup, get the 2666 MHz RAM I mentioned earlier, and grab a non-hyperthreaded CPU because it [B]will not[/B] help you at all to have hyperthreading. I once felt like an i7 sounded a LOT cooler than an i5 but $100 in your pocket seems pretty cool too... You could get a [URL="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181031"]slightly less crazy cooler[/URL].


If you are sure you don't want to use a GPU, then 450W is enough, if you're confident of the quality.


If you are convinced to go the GPU route, you may want to consider how many you would like, and which ones you would like.

The Titans are some pretty scary badasses but are also exceedingly expensive and only cost-effective in the LL test departments. For the price of one Titan you can build a separate GPU-less system and run LL's on it instead.

A more cost-effective GTX x50, x60 or x60 Ti can run some pretty serious Trial Factoring for around $200 apiece.

You will need to know how many PCI-E plugs are on the cards you want. [URL="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151132"]This power supply[/URL] has eight PCI-E cables which would support up to four GTX 660Ti (if you can find room for them, lol). [URL="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817139010"]This one[/URL] would hold two GTX 660 Ti or 4 GTX 650 (again, room for four cards is tough, and you also need the motherboard to support it).

450W + 100W per mid end GPU is loads of power.

:goodposting:
Just one thing, I think it is a terrible idea to buy a Kepler card [I]only [/I]for compute, if you decide on a GPU I've heard ebay etc is a good place for Fermi cards, otherwise I would go AMD...

Yes, it all depends on your budget, you can go as high as you want or quite low, frankly.

[QUOTE=kracker;351213]:goodposting:
Just one thing, I think it is a terrible idea to buy a Kepler card [I]only [/I]for compute, if you decide on a GPU I've heard ebay etc is a good place for Fermi cards, otherwise I would go AMD...

Yes, it all depends on your budget, you can go as high as you want or quite low, frankly.[/QUOTE]

There are definitely deals to find on Ebay for 500 series GPUs. I'm now running a GTX 570 and a 580 courtesy of Ebay, although the 570 is an RMA replacement for my original purchase. (At least in the US, Gigabyte honors warranties for subsequent buyers of a card).

If two or more GPUs are in question, spacing and cooling get far more critical. I have slots for more than two, but one is not usable for a 2+ slot card unless you have a full tower case. The bottom-mounted PSU gets in the way in a mid tower. If the GPUs dump hot air inside the case, you really want a high air flow setup.

If you are going for performance/watt then go for a low power quad. You also won't have to worry about memory so much. The trouble then becomes space as you will need more pcs.

Alright why don't we do this. Many of you seem to have a real solid understanding of the hardware needed to create this machine, so I'll let you build it.

Here is my goal: build a fast, headless, overclocked LL cruncher

1. Need a (i) CPU, (ii) Mobo, (iii) PSU, (iv) Ram, & (v) watercooler
2. No video crunching
3. Silent (or near silent). Small apartment, so this is going in my living room.
4. Minimal monthly electric bill
5. $650 budget

I have experience building computers, so none of that should be a problem. I have a 500GB drive laying around for the HDD, as well as big case, screws, thermal grease, etc. I also have experience overclocking (used to use peltier :cool:).

Can somebody suggest i-v above, if I need to wait for the September processor launch, and I'll order it off newegg.

[QUOTE=Prime95;351185]My Haswell components are listed in the 38th post of [url]http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=17982[/url]

Prices and deals change though, so you are apt to find more cost-efficient components if you search.[/QUOTE]

This actually feels in the ballpark of what I want. Would you edit it for my particular situation above?

Get what you spec'd before (4770k, MSI board, etc) except get 2400MHz RAM. I run mine with a Huntkey 300W, gold rated -- I must be hitting the sweet spot for power usage. :smile:

Is there any benefit of sticking with an i7? Or is there no real difference aside from hyperthreading, which Prime95 can't use anyways?

More cache? More cores?

[QUOTE=kladner;351299]More cache? More cores?[/QUOTE]

Umm...? the i7 has 2MB more cache I believe but same cores. That's why i7 is near useless on P95.

[QUOTE=simon389;351279]This actually feels in the ballpark of what I want. Would you edit it for my particular situation above?[/QUOTE]

Start with my components. Skip the OS, SSD, and case. Choose a different CPU cooler as your existing case probably can't handle the huge radiator and fans.

Then look for equivalent (or better) components that are on sale at newegg.

IMO, invest your money in:
a) a K series non-hyperthreaded CPU for overclocking
b) fast RAM, DDR3-2400 or better
c) an efficient power supply, the extra upfront cost should pay for itself in lower electric bills.

IMO, do not invest your money in:
a) motherboard - choose the cheapest board from a reputable maker
b) quantity of RAM
c) disk, case, etc.

What is the fastest K series haswell non-hyperthreaded CPU available?

Edit: nevermind, answered my own ?: [url]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116899[/url]

Going with this RAM : Team Xtreem 8GB (2 x 4GB) 240-Pin DDR3 SDRAM DDR3 2666 (PC3 21300)
[url]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820313322[/url]
and this cooler: CORSAIR Hydro Series H100i Water Cooler
[url]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16835181032[/url]

Otherwise the rest is:
Rosewill FORTRESS-450 450W PSU : [url]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817182081[/url]
and
MSI Z87-G41 PC Mate LGA Mobo: [url]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813130695[/url]
CPU: Intel Core i5-4670K Haswell 3.4GHz LGA 1150: [url]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116899[/url]

I will order this in 24 hours unless somebody gives me a good reason not to :)

[QUOTE=Prime95;351308]
IMO, do not invest your money in:
a) motherboard - choose the cheapest board from a reputable maker
[/QUOTE]

Sorry, I made that mistake on my Haswell, the low end chipsets don't support memory OC=1600 MHz limit=waste of money on ram. I did a little checking on newegg and it seems only the high end Z87 has it... :no:

[QUOTE=simon389;351311]What is the fastest K series haswell non-hyperthreaded CPU available?

Edit: nevermind, answered my own ?: [URL]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16819116899[/URL][/QUOTE]

Correct.

[QUOTE=kracker;351302]Umm...? the i7 has 2MB more cache I believe but same cores. That's why i7 is near useless on P95.[/QUOTE]

[URL="http://www.newegg.com/Product/ProductList.aspx?Submit=ENE&N=100006519+50001157+40000343+600030238&QksAutoSuggestion=&ShowDeactivatedMark=False&Configurator=&IsNodeId=1&Subcategory=343&description=&hisInDesc=&Ntk=&CFG=&SpeTabStoreType=&AdvancedSearch=1&srchInDesc="]These[/URL] are the "more cores" parts. i5s only go to quads. However, these also break the bank in a big way.:smile:

Having put this out here, NOW I look more closely and see that these are all Sandy Bridge. :blush: Oops.

[QUOTE=kracker;351313]I made that mistake on my Haswell, the low end chipsets don't support memory OC=1600 MHz limit=waste of money on ram. I did a little checking on newegg and it seems only the high end Z87 has it.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the correction. Yes, the motherboard must have the chipset designed for Haswell.

So will this MSI board run the ram at 2666? Total will be $619 btw.

I don't know about MSI. I honestly haven't even looked at any motherboard not from ASUS since I first started looking into building a computer (for myself or for anyone else). I've seen a lot of videos from some guy named J.J. (you can see them on Newegg) who goes into a lot of detail. I'm satisfied, at any rate.

One of the things they said was that all their Z77 boards (including entry level) COULD run 2800 MHz even though official support was up to 2400 MHz. You DO need a high end processor, so you're best with the best i5 as far as that's concerned.

You could try this, instead. [url]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131981[/url]

A few more dollars but this board OFFICIALLY supports 3000 MHz. Holy F---.

Make sure you have room for the H100i. Also, when I got my H80i about 8 months ago the firmware was garbage. Yes. Firmware for a freaking pump. I'm sure it's better by now, but just be wary of this. I'll look into this a little later.

Those fans are a bit obnoxious without a controller. The controller that comes with the pump is controlled by software which could be equally garbage.

[QUOTE=TheMawn;351322]I don't know about MSI. I honestly haven't even looked at any motherboard not from ASUS since I first started looking into building a computer (for myself or for anyone else). I've seen a lot of videos from some guy named J.J. (you can see them on Newegg) who goes into a lot of detail. I'm satisfied, at any rate.

One of the things they said was that all their Z77 boards (including entry level) COULD run 2800 MHz even though official support was up to 2400 MHz. You DO need a high end processor, so you're best with the best i5 as far as that's concerned.

You could try this, instead. [URL]http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16813131981[/URL]

A few more dollars but this board OFFICIALLY supports 3000 MHz. Holy F---.

Make sure you have room for the H100i. Also, when I got my H80i about 8 months ago the firmware was garbage. Yes. Firmware for a freaking pump. I'm sure it's better by now, but just be wary of this. I'll look into this a little later.

Those fans are a bit obnoxious without a controller. The controller that comes with the pump is controlled by software which could be equally garbage.[/QUOTE]

Try to get [URL="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211803"]THIS[/URL] in your mouth.

BTW, almost all Z87 motherboards have 3000 MHz memory support.

EDIT: Z77 is not Haswell.

EDIT2: I have ordered 5 ASRock motherboards in the past, they have been quite good.

I am pretty certain a 4670K would be pretty much the same(at the same clock rate).

Would a larger cache help? Not sure. Will Prime95 take advantage of a larger L3 cache in any useful way? Prime95 is probably the person to answer that question(aside from benchmarks). I seem to remember him saying in the past that it isn't optimised for >512kb per core.

[QUOTE=henryzz;351328]Would a larger cache help? Not sure. Will Prime95 take advantage of a larger L3 cache in any useful way? I seem to remember him saying in the past that it isn't optimised for >512kb per core.[/QUOTE]

Prime95 is optimized for a 256KB L2 cache.

I do not have any benchmarks to support this conjecture: I do not think any larger L2 or L3 caches available today will help prime95.

[QUOTE=kracker;351325]Try to get [URL="http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211803"]THIS[/URL] in your mouth.[/QUOTE]

:shock:.

what version of linux do you suggest for headless? i was going to go with ubuntu 12 lts, but if going without a gui is better i'd be open to suggestions.

I would suggest to you: Debian using the netinstall iso image. You can do a minimal installation by only choosing "ssh server" at the software selection stage -- uncheck anything else. :smile:

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;351348]I would suggest to you: Debian using the netinstall iso image. You can do a minimal installation by only choosing "ssh server" at the software selection stage -- uncheck anything else. :smile:[/QUOTE]

I am eager to do this! A GUI-less setup sounds so freakin' cool. However, I am not the most skilled with Linux, especially without a GUI. I've only ever used GUI Ubuntu. Would Debian netinstall be easy to install and set up P95 to automatically startup with the computer?

[QUOTE=simon389;351350]I am eager to do this! A GUI-less setup sounds so freakin' cool. However, I am not the most skilled with Linux, especially without a GUI. I've only ever used GUI Ubuntu. Would Debian netinstall be easy to install and set up P95 to automatically startup with the computer?[/QUOTE]

Yes. As root you edit with "nano /etc/rc.local" and add the line before any "exit" command in rc.local:

[CODE]su simon -c "cd /home/simon/mprime && ./mprime &"[/CODE]

You will still need to run once "./mprime -m" in the mprime directory to set things up for the primenet server. But after that the above will take care of any reboots.

Note the MSI board does not have any IDE/pata sockets; only sata.

[QUOTE=paulunderwood;351353]Note the MSI board does not have any IDE/pata sockets; only sata.[/QUOTE]

What's IDE/PATA :confused: Sounds like something from the Dark Ages.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parallel_ATA[/url] :grin:

[QUOTE=kracker;351372]What's IDE/PATA :confused: Sounds like something from the Dark Ages.[/QUOTE]

Now don't you worry your pretty little head about such ugly old stuff. :pals:

Does Debian have a GRUB loader included? I want to dual boot with Win7.

[QUOTE=simon389;351385]Does Debian have a GRUB loader included? I want to dual boot with Win7.[/QUOTE]

[URL="http://packages.debian.org/stable/"]Yes[/URL] It's part of netinst. It is easier to install win7 first as M$ overwrites the boot sector, although re-installing grub can be done from the Debian installation media.

You will need to leave space on the disk for Debian when you partition the disk with win7.

(@Mods: Some of this thread should be moved from "hardware" to "linux".)

[QUOTE=simon389;351279]I have experience building computers, so none of that should be a problem. I have a 500GB drive laying around for the HDD, as well as big case, screws, thermal grease, etc. I also have experience overclocking (used to use peltier :cool:).[/QUOTE]

:shock: Peltier was something I had always kind of wanted to get into, but never really knew where to start. I haven't actually done any liquid cooling before either (H80i does not count as liquid cooling) so I would probably have to get into a thermoelectric cooler in two steps. I don't want to have to worry about the inevitable leaks of my first liquid loop while fiddling around with the TEC.

Do you have any recommendations for someone maybe looking to get into Peltier cooling?

[QUOTE=TheMawn;351401]Do you have any recommendations for someone maybe looking to get into Peltier cooling?[/QUOTE]

Go onto the forums and ask for help. I used the Overclockers.com forum back in 2002, but I'm sure there are others. Find where people are talking about what peltier/TEC they are going to use and mimic them.

The toughest part is the money or time, especially in regard to the power supply used to power the peltier. I went the time route, purchasing a cheaper used psu off ebay, and with very pointed help from the forums I soldered it into usefulness, eventually placing it in a relay with my normal psu. When I clicked the power button on the front of my case, both would spin on.

For those with more money, people used to be able to purchase premade peltier-ready PSUs, but if I remember right they were like $300.

I eventually sold my whole setup for over $300.

Back in 2002, if you had $400 to burn, you could get a setup nicely premade for you. You just had to install it. But I did mine for $100, it just involved a lot of wiring and asking-for-help.

Edit: See this :cool: [URL]http://www.overclockers.com/forums/showthread.php?t=387525[/URL]

How does the H80 not count as liquid cooling? Just because its preassembled?

Yeah by not counting as water cooling, I mean it's next to worthless in terms of experience. I think I know how to screw in a radiator now. Lol.

I had toyed around with the idea of chilling the water with a number of TECs instead of chilling the actual CPU (which would help with the scary as hell condensation issues). I don't know if that's even remotely close to a good idea.

[QUOTE=TheMawn;351453]I had toyed around with the idea of chilling the water with a number of TECs instead of chilling the actual CPU (which would help with the scary as hell condensation issues). I don't know if that's even remotely close to a good idea.[/QUOTE]

I was curious about such an approach, too. It seems that it would at least avoid some of the problems of having the TEC right at the CPU. The downside might be that you'd use more power running multiple TECs.

EDIT: .....and you'd be limited to above-freezing temps at the CPU unless you use something other than water as coolant. I know very little about the field. Do people use ethylene glycol or some similar antifreeze as coolant?

[QUOTE=kladner;351479]I was curious about such an approach, too. It seems that it would at least avoid some of the problems of having the TEC right at the CPU. The downside might be that you'd use more power running multiple TECs.

EDIT: .....and you'd be limited to above-freezing temps at the CPU unless you use something other than water as coolant. I know very little about the field. Do people use ethylene glycol or some similar antifreeze as coolant?[/QUOTE]

A person might be tempted to stay away from a system with a reservoir and too much liquid. A kilogram of water takes about 84 kilojoules to cool from 25C to 5C so that's over an hour with a kilowatt of cooling power! Then you have to factor in the cooling requirements of the components too. Just not feasible. I don't know how much water a loop with no reservoir has but it would a bit more feasible.

I'll probably try a normal liquid cooling loop first and see if the performance gets any better. The H80i is a good cooler but people have brought up the fact that it can't compare to a $300 custom loop.

[QUOTE=TheMawn;351493]A person might be tempted to stay away from a system with a reservoir and too much liquid. A kilogram of water takes about 84 kilojoules to cool from 25C to 5C so that's over an hour with a kilowatt of cooling power! Then you have to factor in the cooling requirements of the components too. Just not feasible. I don't know how much water a loop with no reservoir has but it would a bit more feasible.

I'll probably try a normal liquid cooling loop first and see if the performance gets any better. The H80i is a good cooler but people have brought up the fact that it can't compare to a $300 custom loop.[/QUOTE]

Also, you might want to consider if you really [I]need[/I] a custom liquid looped cooler, like unless you have quad OC'ed GPU's etc. etc.

EDIT: If it's just for fun or experience though that's great.

[MEANDER]I think going the chilled [STRIKE]water[/STRIKE] fluid route is really much more the province of phase-change, i.e., compressor, refrigeration. And, I guess that doesn't make as much sense as having the cold plate hooked up directly to the compressor system. The intervening water [I]could[/I] provide thermal mass, though, in case the refrigeration failed. Such a thing would still cry out for an automated shut down arrangement.[/MEANDER]

[QUOTE=kladner;351511][MEANDER]I think going the chilled [STRIKE]water[/STRIKE] fluid route is really much more the province of phase-change, i.e., compressor, refrigeration. And, I guess that doesn't make as much sense as having the cold plate hooked up directly to the compressor system. The intervening water [I]could[/I] provide thermal mass, though, in case the refrigeration failed. Such a thing would still cry out for an automated shut down arrangement.[/MEANDER][/QUOTE]

Just putting this out there for thought...

If you lower the pressure in the system, then the working fluid might boil at lower temperatures...

On the one hand, you might get vapor locks if the system isn't designed well.

On the other hand, you might be able to use vapor pumps.

Just thinking out loud....

I think it would be great to use some kind of boiler directly on the CPU.

[QUOTE=TheMawn;351660]I think it would be great to use some kind of boiler directly on the CPU.[/QUOTE]Heatpipe HSF work that way.