Black 30th
 

Wow! That is a surprise! Their 30.a3 move seems to be a waste. Can they transform there if they take b5? Actually they make a free pawn, but I think they are doomed if they move the bishop out of diagonal. Their concentration should be on the other side of the board. I was honestly expecting a h3/h4 or better a waiting move as Bb7. They can't do nothing there (I mean with the pawns), and we still can threat (and take!) the bishop, with Rd6 now, but the question is if it worth to run after the bishop, which is anyhow locked there. Does it worth for us to waste 4-5 moves to get that bishop? He still can finish with a free pawn there. I still believe Bg4 is our strongest attack, but now his move opens a possibility for Rd1 and attack either the pawns from the back, or the queen after Rd1/Rc1/Rc2, she is literary stuck there, it has no place to go. So it is either Rd1 or Bg4, but no idea which is better. Still looking into it. Someone can look deeper if they have any chance to transform one of the pawns there (assuming we live the last line with the rook).

I was thinking Bd3 but haven't gone thru all the Bg4 lines yet.

[QUOTE=LaurV;342268]with Rd6 [/QUOTE] Bxb5 n what do you play next you have to chase me using the c column for me not to take c4 and put you in check. it puts our pawn in a hard place I think move and be captured or stay still and allow a possible double capture ( admittedly you can protect it but then again is it worth it).

Another possiblity is Rd1 which really hems in the king'

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;342316]Another possiblity is Rd1 which really hems in the king'[/QUOTE]

can we get h3 out of them ? ( Bg4 might entice them to later) if we can't get g3 not protected we can't checkmate with Rg3# if we can get he knight and pawn to move Rg3+ would be a dilemma for the queen unless it captures it forces the king back, but if it does capture it gets captured by a pawn possibly.

After Rd1 can someone find a white improvement on the following 3 lines.

31.Ng1 Be5 32.Bxb5 Bd3

31.h3 Bd3 32.Ng1 Bf1+ 33.Kh2 Be5 34.Nf3 Re2 35.Qxe2 Bxe2 36.Nxe5

31.Bxb5 Bd3 32.Ng1 Be4+ 33.Nf3 Bxf3+ 34.Qxf3 Rxf3 35.Bxc4+ Kf8 36.Kxf3 Be5

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;342353]After Rd1 can someone find a white improvement on the following 3 lines.

31.Ng1 Be5 32.Bxb5 Bd3

31.h3 Bd3 32.Ng1 Bf1+ 33.Kh2 Be5 34.Nf3 Re2 35.Qxe2 Bxe2 36.Nxe5

31.Bxb5 Bd3 32.Ng1 Be4+ 33.Nf3 Bxf3+ 34.Qxf3 Rxf3 35.Bxc4+ Kf8 36.Kxf3 Be5[/QUOTE]


I don't see the positive for us in the first, I don't see why 33. Kh2 would be done when Qxf1 is there with no threat. I'm still not able to process as far as the third ahead.

[QUOTE=science_man_88;342355]I don't see the positive for us in the first, I don't see why 33. Kh2 would be done when Qxf1 is there with no threat. I'm still not able to process as far as the third ahead.[/QUOTE]

There is a pawn on h2.

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;342381]There is a pawn on h2.[/QUOTE]
not in the h3 line.

[QUOTE=WMHalsdorf;342353]After Rd1 can someone find a white improvement on the following 3 lines.

31.Ng1 Be5 32.Bxb5 Bd3

31.h3 Bd3 32.Ng1 Bf1+ 33.Kh2 Be5 34.Nf3 Re2 35.Qxe2 Bxe2 36.Nxe5

31.Bxb5 Bd3 32.Ng1 Be4+ 33.Nf3 Bxf3+ 34.Qxf3 Rxf3 35.Bxc4+ Kf8 36.Kxf3 Be5[/QUOTE]

Last one,[B][COLOR=Blue] 31.Bxb5[/COLOR][/B] is terrible for white, especially with your continuation, Bd3. He can not live the diagonal and take that pawn, is poisoned! (well, a poisoned pawn means something else in chess, but well, this pawn is poisoned for real! because he can't live the diagonal with the bishop!)

Assuming we play 31...Bd3 (still a very good move, but I don't know if it is our best, I consider 31...Be4 much better), he [B]better plays 32.Kh3 or 32.Nd2[/B]. With the last, he loses the queen after 32...Re2 (linked, need to give it for a rook). The former is worse, after 32...Rf1, white's only choice to avoid the mate is to exchange the queen for the rook, his horse is still linked or lost (depending which rook he takes, but he must take f1, if he takes e3 we transform for sure, and play queen and rook and bishop against nothing! I think this is in fact mate fast, as he can not live the corner) and we transform the pawn in f (or in e, if he takes e3).

The version you propose, 32.Ng1 is worse than both versions I propose (worse for white), as after 31.Bxb5 Bd3 32.Ng1 (bad!) Be4+ (indeed very good response of black!) white can not avoid the mate: 33.Nf3 [B]Rxf3 (!) [/B](not with the bishop!) If he does not take it with the queen, is immediate mate with double check: Rg3. He can delay the mate if Bxc4, but only one move, at the end he must take the rook, then [U]the queen is linked![/U] we have Rd2, check, king goes somewhere, Bxf3 for free!, and mate in few moves (the king, either in h3 or on the first line, can't go anywhere, and we eventually can support with the bishop in g7). For 33...Bxf3 (your version) we can't use Rd2 because [U]his queen is not linked[/U], and he can block moving the queen back to f2, so we have no bishop (we gave it for free!). This is also our win, but longer.

So, if we play Bd3, his Ng1 is not his best, he is mate in mostly 20 moves if he plays Ng1. He has better replies to 31.Bxb5 Bd3, but we [U]may not need[/U] to play 31...Bd3, I think that if he leaves the diagonal with the bishop, then 31...Be4, we [U]link the horse[/U] and we are somehow like before, only we are not "in sente", because now he is to move (before, it was our move, after he blocked with the horse). Never mind we lost the "sente", he can't do too much, and we somehow "shorted" the previous tree by two moves :smile: What he can actually do now best is 32.Bxc4 check, Kh8, 33.Be2 which seems to complicate the things because of that bishop, but after 33...Rd2 all his pieces are interlocked or linked, and the only thing he can do is exchange the queen for the rock in e3, or move the king. In both cases he loses the queen and another piece (both the horse and the bishop are linked if he takes the rook, and if he moves the king then Rxe2 and he must exchange the queen to avoid the mate) and we transform the advanced pawn, or take the other piece (horse) for it. We can even exchange the last rook for its horse and then we guard the pawn in the back, his king must then stay there, otherwise we transform the pawn. So we are "free" to clear the rest of the board with our king, and he can't transform the b&c because our pawn in a7 and the bishop in e5.

The second version of yours [B][COLOR=Blue]31.h3 Bd3 32.Ng1[/COLOR][/B] (he can here extend by a move, playing the Bd5-check first, but futile) [STRIKE]Bf1+ 33.Kh2 Be5 34.Nf3 Re2 35.Qxe2 Bxe2 36.Nxe5 [/STRIKE] [COLOR=Red][B]32...Be5[/B] (!)[/COLOR] is also very bad for white, but not so terrible as the third.

(The continuation 32...Bf1+ [B](bad!)[/B] 33.Kh2 Be5, this has the[B] [COLOR=Red]34.Bf3[/COLOR][/B][COLOR=Red] (!)[/COLOR] which become very difficult to crack for black! - white is all defended and we can not immediately attack the queen, we have no interest to break the fortress by giving a bishop for a pawn or a rock for a horse... Still winable by black, but much harder - I honestly don't know how that can be won, but black still has a lot of advantage, and white did not make any free pawns). Anyhow, this is only in theory. In practice, we play 32...Be5 defending the pawn, he is death anyhow. This version (h3, and idem for h4) is sure death for white.

The first of your lines [COLOR=Blue][B]31.Ng1 Be5[/B][/COLOR] [STRIKE]32.Bxb5 Bd3[/STRIKE] (bad! discussed before, he can't leave the diagonal, we win if so!) is in fact the reason why I preferred the [COLOR=Red][B]30...Bg4[/B] (!)[/COLOR] :razz: He can play here 32.Ba8, or Bb7, or even Nf3 back, and we have no progress except that we developed the bishop a bit, but we still need to move it back (to d6?) to full develop it (we can't put it to d4). I can not find a good continuation for 30...Rd1 31.Ng1, even if indeed, Be5 seems to be our best move here. But then what? Anyhow, 30...Rd1 seems as much promising as 30...Bg4 with only the analysis we have already. [U]We have to think a bit deeper for this Ng1, if we can solve it favorable to us, then this Rd1 is our move, as all the other paths from it seem to be better for us, compared with the paths from 30...Bg4.[/U] The only path unsolved is 30...Rd1, 31.Ng1.

So: [COLOR=Blue][B]31.Ng1 Be5.[/B] [COLOR=black]Then what? i.e. What do we reply to 32.Bb7, or Ba8, or Bf3, or Nf3? [/COLOR][/COLOR]

Hey, methink now at 1 o'clock in the night, that Rd1 move is better then Bg4 move, indeed! Thanks WMH, well done! We can deal well with all situations after Rd1, including Ng1, my only concern was if they can escape with the queen (like taking a7 or something, and then bothering us with eternal check). But they can not!

So, my vote goes to [B]30...Rd1

[/B][edit: most probably the game will continue with 31.Ng1, Be5, as said, and from there, let's see their reply. If Nf3 back, then we can position our bishop to c7/b6, or d6/c5, with a very strong attack on the queen, and they still have no place to go. If he plays the bishop, then Rc1/c2 is a very strong attack on the queen too. They must change it!]

The more I look to this move, the more I like it.

So, should I understand that there are no objections to [B]30...Rd1[/B] if nobody objected till now? Sm88? (I consider WMH voted for it, as it is his proposal).

Should I post it? (we already won this game anyhow).

[QUOTE=LaurV;342460]Should I post it? (we already won this game anyhow).[/QUOTE]

might as well

So... Ng1. Good. We expected Ng1. What to do now?

Now we either (1) defend the pawn, [COLOR=Green][B]Be5[/B][/COLOR], as discussed (which is in my opinion the best move, the advanced - and almost free - pawn is very important and valuable now: I see it either like a queen, either like a hero, taking a white knight or bishop with him if it dies on the way to become a queen! :razz:)

or either (2) we sacrifice the pawn to make them run away with the queen. What should the best move be, in this scenario?

The Be5 move is the best since it does more than protect the pawn. It indirectly covers h2 and in the event Nf3 it would go to c7 then to b6 while other moves can be meet with either Rc1 or Bd3.

Sure, I fully agree. That was discussed already.

I was (additionally) checking Rc1 and Bd3. Doing Bd3 in this position is bad, because after the queen takes the pawn we can't move Be5 to lock the queen (mate with Rh2 after check) because in this case they can mate us faster (Bd5, Qf8). So, this is bad, the bishops are "interlocked", we can move one of them, but not both. Also, pushing pawns is futile (a6 is totally wasting time, because they can't live the diagonal with the bishop to take b5 anyhow, and f3 is giving it to them for free).

Therefore, what is left (if we don't move Be5) is Rc1. In this case, they can't take the pawn. If 32.Qxf4, Rc2, queen must block and it is lost. If queen does not block and they play 33.Kh1, this is going fast to a mate, after Be5, he must go Qh4 to protect h2, and the queen is locked on the h column. The only question left is what they can do after 31...Rc1, [U][B]if they do not[/B][/U] take the pawn. It does not seems they can do much, and if I am not missing something, Rc1 may be same good as Be5, or even better. We don't know yet.

Anyhow, it does not matter too much on this stage of the game, both versions are winning for us, and if I do not find anything "brilliant" about Rc1 today, then I will post Be5 tomorrow (if no objections).

not sure I thought I saw a way to win but it has a flaw or 2.

[QUOTE=LaurV;342815]... if I do not find anything "brilliant" about Rc1 today, then I will post Be5 tomorrow (if no objections).[/QUOTE]
Sorry for the delay. I really got stuck yesterday evening with Rc1 Kh1 (I could not imagine that it is such a hard nut to crack) and I forgot to post the move.

So, Be5 it is...

[QUOTE=LaurV;343050]Sorry for the delay. I really got stuck yesterday evening with Rc1 Kh1 (I could not imagine that it is such a hard nut to crack) and I forgot to post the move.

So, Be5 it is...[/QUOTE]

they responded with Nf3 and the bishop we just moved is now under attack.

It's a poisoned bishop. The best move now is Rc1.

[B]Rc1[/B] is a very good move, and it wins the game too.

However I like Bc7 better, I don't like to give that bishop away. If we do, we may have to play with a single rook against two free pawns, and winning that is very tricky.

I am talking about something like: 32...Rc1 33.Bxb5 Rc2 34.Bxc4 Kg7 35.Qxc2 Bxc2 36. Nxe5 Rxe5 37.h4, still winnable, but it can be tricky. There is also possible to have 32...Rc1 33. Bxb5 Rc2 34.Bxc4 Kg7 35.Nd2 and they may escape with the queen (or may not! @SM88: they can not take the bishop right now, that is why "it is poisoned", because of the mate in one move we have with the bishop Bh3).

You know, I always say that we win the game, I am very optimistic when I play a game, any game, it makes no sense to play knowing you will lose... but I can't evaluate the position up to the end (nobody can do that, nor big masters, neither the existent chess engines). I just play few moves in advance and "scale/weight" the advantage on the board. And [B]we have a lot of it now[/B], sooner or later they must exchange that queen for a rook to avoid the mate, and then, that's it.

I think we should keep the bishop for now, and as it makes no sense to move it back, the only moves are Bd6 or Bc7. Both are good threats, for a very strong attack on Bc5 or Bb6, but the last one is much better because it is defended by the pawn. Actually white can do nothing here, the horse is locked (because of mate, he may only put it in g1, which is bad). He may take a pawn, but we still have Bd3 to defend the second pawn and very strong attach in the same time. So, depending on their move, we can move Rc1 later (he can do nothing against Rc1, AND block the two bishops in the same time).

So, my pick is [B]Bc7[/B]. [edit: ps: Bc7 is also guarding d8, in case they escape with the queen in d2, d8+, after we go Rc1 and let the column d free, white king goes somewhere, etc :razz:]

Any opinion?

Between Rc1 and Bc7, Bc7 is the safer of the two and both lead to a win.

So, should we go with the safer? :smile:

Sm88, what do you think? Rc1 or Bc7?

If no objection, then I will post Bc7 tonight.

[QUOTE=LaurV;343716]So, should we go with the safer? :smile:

Sm88, what do you think? Rc1 or Bc7?

If no objection, then I will post Bc7 tonight.[/QUOTE]

bc7 seems better to me I don't see what Rc1 accomplishes where bc7 gets our bishop free.

Bb7 is the response

expected, they can't do nothing except waiting moves. We should finish what we started, [B]Bb6[/B], and let's see how they avoid the mate...

Fine by me.

I don't see anything to object with so it's fine here as well.

h4 seems to be the reply

And nothing screams louder than Re7!!

Indeed, hehe.. Loud scream!

But is it good? First impression is that the queen escapes after 34..Re7 35.Nd4 Bxd4 (we can not take the bishop, they get off with Qe2 for good, if we left the column, and then later we may be forced to carefully guard against an eternal check, that queen is dangerous if it gets out) 36.cxd4 Rxb7 37.Qxf4 (and out again, we don't have a strong attack to keep the queen there).

I think this is a trap, they did it on purpose. :smile:
We need to continue with what we discussed before (your ideas, in fact, both of them!), either Bd3 or Rc1. Both are very good attacks to that queen (and the king too!). Even Rc3 is good, it destroy white's pawns and the queen can't escape with Qe2 (as in the Re7 variant), because Rc2 and queen is lost anyhow (blocking with the horse in d2, lose the horse for free, as both rooks attack the horse)...

[QUOTE=LaurV;344937]Indeed, hehe.. Loud scream!

But is it good? First impression is that the queen escapes after 34..Re7 35.Nd4 Bxd4 (we can not take the bishop, they get off with Qe2 for good, if we left the column, and then later we may be forced to carefully guard against an eternal check, that queen is dangerous if it gets out) 36.cxd4 Rxb7 37.Qxf4 (and out again, we don't have a strong attack to keep the queen there).

I think this is a trap, they did it on purpose. :smile:
We need to continue with what we discussed before (your ideas, in fact, both of them!), either Bd3 or Rc1. Both are very good attacks to that queen (and the king too!). Even Rc3 is good, it destroy white's pawns and the queen can't escape with Qe2 (as in the Re7 variant), because Rc2 and queen is lost anyhow (blocking with the horse in d2, lose the horse for free, as both rooks attack the horse)...[/QUOTE]

what about Bg4 we attack the knight there's only 2 safe places to go if it goes to the place where it attacks the bishop the bishop moves to h3 and we win, the problem is forcing the knight to h2.

I like Rxc3 since it forces a favorable exchange of material if white wants to
avoid a quick mate.

34...Rxc3 bxc3 Bxf2 Kxf2 Rd3 is sure way to win, as we play a rook and 3 pawns against a single horse. There is no way they can win that. The final might be long thou...

34...Bg4 is a good move too. They can't go anywhere, the only thing they can do is to push a pawn or move the bishop a little. In fact, they may need to push h5 to make a place to put the queen, hehe, which is anyhow bad, after Red3, we get the queen for a single rook (and save the bishop).

Ok, I had a look to the last two, and also to Rc1, Red3 (like I didn't want to give the rook in c3, hehe) and Bd3.

I would definitively like Bg4 better than others. In the [U]worst[/U] case, we get the queen for a single rook (and save our bishop). In the best case, we mate them very fast.

[B]34...Bg4[/B] is my choice. As SM88 already "voted" for it (he suggested it), if WMH has no serious objection to it, I will post it tomorrow morning (24 hours from now).

BTW, @SM88, they can't move the knight, that would be the best version for us...

[QUOTE=LaurV;345129]BTW, @SM88, they can't move the knight, that would be the best version for us...[/QUOTE]

h2 is open and able to receive a knight without complete harm except it would allow Bh3#, but the rest are all blocked or under attack I agree.

[QUOTE=science_man_88;345152]h2 is open and able to receive a knight without complete harm except it would allow Bh3#, but the rest are all blocked or under attack I agree.[/QUOTE]
They can not move that knight, all knight's moves are fast mate, except Nd4, which is also mate, but longer.
Nh2 is mate in 1 move with Bh3. Nd2, Ng1, Ne5 is mate in few moves after Rg3, nothing can avoid the mate. With Ne1 they give it for free and this is also mate after Re3xe1, Qxe1, Rxe1, we transform the pawn or take the bishop for it in f3, after Rg1. It follows mate in few moves.
Nd4 is a bit more complicate, after the exchange Bxd4, cxd4, we go Re2, Qxe2, Bxe2, and that's it, we have a rook and few pawns advantage (much better then in version with 34..Rxc3, there we had the same, but against a knight, now the knight is gone).

It took some time for me to go thru all the lines for Bg4 and found that all the lines that favored us, so Bg4 it is.

it looks like they replied Nd4

[QUOTE=science_man_88;345358]it looks like they replied Nd4[/QUOTE]
Perfect, like this we get the queen for a single rook, as said: Bxd4, cxd4, Re2. Any other play is mate. Here they are forced to take the rook, any other move we may take the queen for less, or even for free, or mate them faster. If for example they play Bf3, we exchange all and escape with a clean rook. They can check us with the bishop, but this is helping us to advance the king. So, the only reasonable continuation after Re2 is: Qxe2, Bxe2. We now play a rook and a couple of pawns in advantage, which is sure win for us in about 15-20 moves. I believe I can mate them in less moves, as the white king can't leave the corner anymore after the exchange (but I did not find a sure mate yet, honestly I did not look too hard, this game is played anyhow, it is not so palpitant anymore). If I would be them, I would give up now.

A quick reply is in order, maybe even a conditional reply.

[QUOTE=LaurV;345409]Perfect, like this we get the queen for a single rook, as said: Bxd4, cxd4, Re2. Any other play is mate. Here they are forced to take the rook, any other move we may take the queen for less, or even for free, or mate them faster. If for example they play Bf3, we exchange all and escape with a clean rook. They can check us with the bishop, but this is helping us to advance the king. So, the only reasonable continuation after Re2 is: Qxe2, Bxe2. We now play a rook and a couple of pawns in advantage, which is sure win for us in about 15-20 moves. I believe I can mate them in less moves, as the white king can't leave the corner anymore after the exchange (but I did not find a sure mate yet, honestly I did not look too hard, this game is played anyhow, it is not so palpitant anymore). If I would be them, I would give up now.[/QUOTE]

I was originally thinking Rg3+ forcing Kh2 but then I lost how to win.