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-   -   how much ECM without finding an existing factor (https://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=17657)

dbaugh 2013-01-10 23:34

how much ECM without finding an existing factor
 
Using TF, I found a smallish factor of 1328447 (6765509895590355887). The following curves had already been run without finding this 63-bit factor. What is the worst case known of ECM missing a factor? How many hundred curves does theory say are needed to clear through 63 bits?

1 curves, B1=50000, B2=5000000 by "George Woltman" on 2007-12-18
3 curves, B1=50000, B2=5000000 by "Sturle Sunde" on 2008-10-13
3 curves, B1=50000, B2=5000000 by "Sturle Sunde" on 2009-02-21
3 curves, B1=50000, B2=5000000 by "Tapio Rajala" on 2009-07-26
3 curves, B1=50000, B2=5000000 by "SubPrime" on 2009-11-08
3 curves, B1=50000, B2=5000000 by "James Hintz" on 2010-06-11
3 curves, B1=50000, B2=5000000 by "Bruce" on 2011-02-23
1 curve, B1=50000, B2=5000000 by "Oscar Östlin" on 2011-11-19
3 curves, B1=50000, B2=5000000 by "James Hintz" on 2012-04-10
3 curves, B1=50000, B2=5000000 by "OS1" on 2012-10-30

c10ck3r 2013-01-10 23:37

FWIW, P-1 would take FOREVER to find this, since its a prime k.
I lack sufficient understanding to answer the ECM question, however.

Dubslow 2013-01-11 00:01

According to the well known GMP-ECM estimates, this is the ECM work data in that range:
[code]t B1 standard curves Brent-Suyama curves
20 11e3 74 74
25 5e4 221 214
30 25e4 453 430
35 1e6 984 904[/code]

This indicates that t20 is 74 curves at B1=11000, while a t25 is 214 curves at 50000, the bounds reported there. A "t20" or "t30" or "t<number>" means that there's a exp(-1) ~ 37% chance of having missed a <number> sized factor. Doing twice the number of curves (or in general x times the number of curves) means that you have a exp(-2) ~ 14% (or exp(-x)) chance of having missed a factor of that size.

That data shows 25 curves done at the t25 level, which is well short of the 214 suggested (and still rather short of 74 curves at the lower t20). It's therefore well within the bounds of chance and reason that a 19 digit factor hadn't been found. One might guess that another 200 curves would *probably* find the factor (and maybe another factor closer to 25 digits than 20).

Axon 2013-01-11 13:50

If a big number has a factor between 2[SUP]62[/SUP] and 2[SUP]63[/SUP], then a probability of findind this factor with 26 ECM curves (B1=50000 and B2=100*B1) is about [B]0.75[/B] (it may be inaccurate but I hope not [I]very inaccurate[/I]).
Therefore it isn't so improbable that the factor was missed. To increase the probability of findind 63-bit factor up to 0.99 you should run about 90 ECM curves.

henryzz 2013-01-11 16:31

[QUOTE=Axon;324395]If a big number has a factor between 2[SUP]62[/SUP] and 2[SUP]63[/SUP], then a probability of findind this factor with 26 ECM curves (B1=50000 and B2=100*B1) is about [B]0.75[/B] (it may be inaccurate but I hope not [I]very inaccurate[/I]).
Therefore it isn't so improbable that the factor was missed. To increase the probability of findind 63-bit factor up to 0.99 you should run about 90 ECM curves.[/QUOTE]

These probabilities are based on an exponential distribution.
The probability of finding a 20 digit factor with 74 curves at 11e3 is 1-e^-1
With 37 curves 1-e^(-1/2). With n curves 1-e^(-n/74) etc.
99% chance of a 20 digit factor is 341 curves.


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