[QUOTE=retina;518805][URL]https://phys.org/news/2019-06-good-guy-gun-deadly-american.html[/URL] Who is adding facts into the discussion? Please stop with the reality. We should continue the fantasy that somehow more guns makes everyone safer.[/QUOTE]
The shooter was a long time employee in a building where the employer's policy prohibited employees from being armed. He had years to observe his fellow employees' obedience of the policy, and gain confidence that he would have only unarmed helpless victims unable to effectively oppose him. Average casualty count in a gun-free zone is about a dozen excess deaths per mass killing attempt, compared to unrestrictive zones.

There have been jurisdictions where, for as long as 20 years now, with specified training and approval requirements, teachers or other staff may be armed during school hours while students are present. The total number of injuries due to armed teachers or staff discharging a weapon while students were present during school hours, is ZERO. One case was documented of a teacher, without students present, after hours, injured HIMSELF. In 20 YEARS.
Yeah. Can't have reality intruding on a political/religious crusade to disarm everyone everywhere and make us more completely wards of the state.
Perfect safety and security does not exist. Even in maximum security prisons, people get killed or maimed. There are only differing strategies and tradeoffs.
Homicide by all methods isn't in the top ten causes of death in the USA. Homicide by firearm is small compared to the top ten. Falls total about as many deaths as suicide by firearm plus homicide by firearm. (And if all firearms disappeared from the continent, substitution of other methods would occur at a high rate.)
[URL]https://www.cdc.gov/injury/wisqars/LeadingCauses.html[/URL]
If you had a billion dollars or a specific amount of political capital to spend, it is likely that more lives could be saved by reducing heart disease, the current leading killer.
Definitions of mass shooting vary. [URL]https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/reports/mass-shooting[/URL] uses a very different definition than the FBI (4 or more fatalities). That 150 count at the gun violence archive drops to about 11 by the FBI definition. By the broader violence archive definition, I note [B]no[/B] entries year to date for Wyoming, which has gun ownership ~60%, the highest in the nation. This is consistent with other factors, such as urban density, violent crime rate in general, poverty, demographics, culture, etc. being more significant factors than firearm availability. If the problem were proportional to firearm availability, Wyoming would likely make an appearance there. But it does not. Other states with much more population and significant firearms ownership would likely also. But many such do not.
It breaks down by state and DC as follows:
AL
AR
AZ
CA
CO
DC
DE
FL
GA
IL (disproportionately & repeatedly, Chicago)
IN
KS
KY
LA
MA
MD (Baltimore repeatedly)
MI
MO
MS
MT
NE
NC
NJ
NV
NY
OH
OK
OR
PA
SC
TN
TX
VA
WA

Note, that's 33 states and DC; 17 states are absent, had zero so far:
AK CT HI IA ID ME MN ND NH NM RI SD UT VT WI WV WY
Many of these are higher gun ownership states than in the first list.
[URL]https://state.1keydata.com/state-abbreviations.php[/URL]

FBI 10 most wanted

[URL]https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/bhadreshkumar-chetanbhai-patel/@@download.pdf[/URL] beat his wife to death at a donut shop while working there

[URL]https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/robert-william-fisher/@@download.pdf[/URL]
killed his wife and children at home (method unstated), blew up the house

[URL]https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/santiago-mederos/mederos-english.pdf[/URL]
multiple murder charges, attempted murder, conspiracy to commit murder, unlawful possession of a firearm
known member of the Eastside Lokotes Sureno (ELS) gang
multiple misuses of firearms in commissions of crimes

[URL]https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/eugene-palmer/@@download.pdf[/URL]
murder, unlawful flight (shot and killed his daughter in law)

[URL]https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/alexis-flores/@@download.pdf[/URL]
kidnaping, murder, unlawful flight
(kidnaped and strangled a 5 year old girl)

[URL]https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/arnoldo-jimenez[/URL]
unlawful flight, murder
stabbed his wife the day after their wedding in his Maserati

[URL]https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/alejandro-castillo[/URL]
unlawful flight, murder
wanted for involvement in murder by gunshot to the head, of a coworker

[URL]https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/yaser-abdel-said/@@download.pdf[/URL]
unlawful flight, capital murder multiple
shot his two daughters dead on New Years day.

[URL]https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/jason-derek-brown/@@download.pdf[/URL]
unlawful flight, murder, armed robbery
sounds like a textbook sociopath. killed an armed guard during a robbery

[URL]https://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/rafael-caro-quintero[/URL]
VIOLENT CRIMES IN AID OF RACKETEERING; CONSPIRACY TO COMMIT VIOLENT CRIMES IN AID OF RACKETEERING; CONSPIRACY TO KIDNAP A FEDERAL AGENT; KIDNAPPING OF A FEDERAL AGENT; FELONY MURDER OF A FEDERAL AGENT; AIDING AND ABETTING; ACCESSORY AFTER THE FACT
Sinaloa Cartel member, allegedly holds an active key leadership position; $20 million reward.
Weapons/methods unspecified; seems likely to include firearms regardless of legality

Of the top ten, 5 used firearms in their charged crimes, 3 used other means, 2 are unstated.

[YOUTUBE]MCI4bUk4vuM[/YOUTUBE]

[url=https://www.apnews.com/35e45f6d09e347c4a1c51c52cf77725c]Shooting at California festival kills 3; suspect is dead[/url]

"... and all in all it was a very good year for the undertaker" -- Carole King, [i]Smackwater Jack[/i]

[url]https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49159680[/url]

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;522502][url=https://www.apnews.com/35e45f6d09e347c4a1c51c52cf77725c]Shooting at California festival kills 3; suspect is dead[/url][/QUOTE]A friend of mine that is from that area post for the first time in quite a while on FB to report that they and all of their family were ok, following this. I suspect that while they were physically unharmed, there will be psychological issues for some time.

I have driven through that town while on vacation. Ernst probably has been there a few times.

[url]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/29/california-garlic-festival-shooting-police-casualties[/url] [quote][A witness] heard someone shout, "Why are you doing this?" The shooter shouted back, "Because I'm really angry!"[/quote]Okay. Good enough for me. Sounds like a reasonable excuse. I'm so pleased that 2[sup]nd[/sup] thing allows someone to express their anger in this way.

Naturally those thoughts and prayers will be swiftly forthcoming to make everything better.

:loco:

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;522599]A friend of mine that is from that area post for the first time in quite a while on FB to report that they and all of their family were ok, following this. I suspect that while they were physically unharmed, there will be psychological issues for some time.

I have driven through that town while on vacation. Ernst probably has been there a few times.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, Gilroy was just a short drive south of me when I lived in Silicon Valley - it's at the hot SE end of SiVal. This past weekend, even though the drive from my current Marin county digs is now too far to make, I was thinking how for folks in the South Bay contemplating going Sunday would be the best day to visit the festival, as it was 5 degrees cooler than Saturday, which had been really hot. That sucks to have such a thing happen, but that's life in the doomed dysfunctional (dis)United States of the 21st century, watching a society literally tear itself asunder in an orgy of kleptocapitalism and imperial violence, of which the 'random' mass shootings, opioid epidemic, killer cops and reality TV president are all symptoms. [I was gonna add "in slow-motion" to the tearing-apart bit, but thinking about it, the decline and fall of the Roman Empire took about as long as there have been white people in North America.]

[QUOTE=ewmayer;522635][I was gonna add "in slow-motion" to the tearing-apart bit, but thinking about it, the decline and fall of the Roman Empire took about as long as there have been white people in North America.][/QUOTE]About a thousand years?

Yes, that sounds about right. The Roman Empire didn't finally fall until the Turks took over Constantinople.

[QUOTE=retina;522601][url]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/jul/29/california-garlic-festival-shooting-police-casualties[/url] Okay. Good enough for me. Sounds like a reasonable excuse. I'm so pleased that 2[sup]nd[/sup] thing allows someone to express their anger in this way.

Naturally those thoughts and prayers will be swiftly forthcoming to make everything better.

:loco:[/QUOTE]

First smiley is for this post. The others are along for the ride.

[QUOTE=xilman;522638]About a thousand years?

Yes, that sounds about right. The Roman Empire didn't finally fall until the Turks took over Constantinople.[/QUOTE]

I was referring specifically to the Western empire, in order to be as kind as possible to the current empire-in-decline under discussion.

[URL="https://www.bbc.com/news/av/world-us-canada-49220740/woman-killed-as-us-police-officer-fires-at-dog-in-arlington-texas"]It shouldn't happen to a dog.[/URL] Oh, wait, it didn't.

[URL="https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49221936"]I live on the outskirts of El Paso.[/URL]

[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Paso%2C_La_Palma"]The civilized one[/URL], thankfully.

[YOUTUBE]7UVVS5-9HvA[/YOUTUBE]

Sorry I'm late to the party... [url=https://www.apnews.com/13545dd216ae4e7aa46c524b7ee4cbec]Texas governor: 20 dead in El Paso shopping center shooting[/url] [quote]EL PASO, Texas (AP) — A young gunman opened fire in an El Paso, Texas, shopping area packed with as many as 3,000 people during the busy back-to-school season Saturday, leaving 20 dead and more than two dozen injured.

Gov. Greg Abbott called the incident in the Texas border city "one of the most deadly days in the history of Texas." Police said authorities were investigating if it was a hate crime.

The suspect was arrested without incident outside the Walmart near the Cielo Vista Mall, said El Paso Police Chief Greg Allen. Two law enforcement officials who spoke to The Associated Press on condition of anonymity identified the suspect as 21-year-old Patrick Crusius. El Paso police didn’t release his name at a news conference but confirmed the gunman is from Allen, near Dallas.

Many of the victims were shot at the Walmart, police said.

"The scene was a horrific one," said Allen, adding that many of the 26 people who were hurt had life-threatening injuries.[/quote]
Hmm. Lot of people with life-threatening injuries. The body count could climb.

Of course, [i]Il Duce[/i]'s anti-immigrant demagoguery has nothing -- nothing at all -- to do with Our Hero's exploit.

Dayton, OH: Nine confirmed killed, shooter also dead

[URL="https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49224816"]https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-49224816[/URL]

'No Way To Prevent This,' Says Only Nation Where This Regularly Happens

El Paso shooting
 

I haven't seen any description of the circumstances of the capture of Our Hero of El Paso. I was led to wonder about this because of something he wrote in his pathetic attempt to justify his massacre:[quote]My death is likely inevitable. If I’m not killed by the police, then I’ll probably be gunned down by one of the invaders. Capture in this case if far worse than dying during the shooting because I’ll get the death penalty anyway. Worse still is that I would live knowing that my family despises me. This is why I’m not going to surrender even if I run out of ammo. If I’m captured, it will be because I was subdued somehow.[/quote]Call me a meanie, but the idea of this perp surrendering, cringing and whining "Please, please don't shoot!" makes me smile. Make that "grin from ear to ear."

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;523049]Of course, [i]Il Duce[/i]'s anti-immigrant demagoguery has nothing -- nothing at all -- to do with [B]Our Hero's[/B] exploit.[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;523067]I haven't seen any description of the circumstances of the capture of [B]Our Hero[/B] of El Paso.[/QUOTE]The shooter may be a hero to you, but to me he is a despicable turd.

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;523072]The shooter may be a hero to you, but to me he is a despicable turd.[/QUOTE]He was probably just angry. You wouldn't begrudge him the opportunity to release his anger. Would you? You meanie!

:bang:

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;523072]The shooter may be a hero to you, but to me he is a despicable turd.[/QUOTE]

I believe Dr. Sardonicus was being Dr. Sarcasticus for a moment.

Food for thought in form of a 2005 book by Mark Ames, Matt Taibbi's former brother-in-arms at the satirical Moscow tabloid-aimed-at-fellow-expatriates, [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_eXile]the eXile[/url]:

[url=https://www.amazon.com/Going-Postal-Rebellion-Workplaces-Columbine/dp/1932360824]Going Postal: Rage, Murder, and Rebellion: From Reagan's Workplaces to Clinton's Columbine and Beyond[/url]

This places the phenomenon firmly within the "orgy of kleptocapitalism" comment I made last week in the wake of the Gilroy Garlic Festival shooting. The aim of the multidecadal neoliberal political-economic project is to precaritize the bottom 99%; this is typically couched in bromides about "free-market competition". Three key aspects of this process are:

[1] Destroy the notion of job security;
[2] Make people in the targeted demographic feel atomized - destruction of labor unions and labor solidarity are key here, as is the replacement of the notion of class warfare in public discourse by references to identity politics, i.e. "what divides us" - classic example is that one rarely hears unqualified "working class" in the MSM, rather one hears "white working class", "black urban underclass", etc;
[3] Use unfettered immigration as a tool to put relentless downward pressure on wages and working conditions. Even the likes of famous labor activist Cesar Chavez understood the cynical use of Open Borders by corporate America in this regard.

Trump, being Trump, has been cynically exploiting the Open Borders issue for political ends - but that does not mean it is not important. Lots of discussion [url=https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2019/08/links-8-4-19.html#comment-3191241]over on NC today[/url] about this, prompted by the dual stories of the El Paso shooting and the announcement by Democratic Socialists of America that it passed a resolution in favor of open borders at its national convention this week - I noted in that comments thread that even the most staunchly pro-immigrant regular NC commenter, 'marym', stated that she found the DSA resolution to be "irresponsible and dangerous".

None of which is to excuse the El Paso psycho - just to place this latest such incident into the broader context of life in the latter-day U.S., with its toxic mix of broad economic and social despair and individualistic-gun-culture-fetishism, plus now social-media me-too-ism added to the mix. NC reader 'jeremyharrison' notes re. the shooter's manifesto:

"I’m not keen on giving him a voice, but wth…. It’s certainly racist, and nationalist, but also quite anti-corporatist. He despises the influx of Hispanics, which he sees as threatening the European-based US culture, but lays the blame on the corporations who seek downward pressure on wages, and politicians, both Dem and Repub, who do the corporations bidding.

Needless to say, his “solution” is twisted and obscene."

Another set of data points on the "triumph of neoliberlism" aspect of the mass-shooting epidemic - in a related NC post today (actually a repost by [i]The American Prospect[/i]'s Robert Kuttner, original over at Alternet), [url=https://www.nakedcapitalism.com/2019/08/neoliberalism-political-success-economic-failure.html]Neoliberalism: Political Success, Economic Failure[/url], the author opens with
[quote]Since the late 1970s, we’ve had a grand experiment to test the claim that free markets really do work best. This resurrection occurred despite the practical failure of laissez-faire in the 1930s, the resulting humiliation of free-market theory, and the contrasting success of managed capitalism during the three-decade postwar boom.[/quote]

Now compare that timeline of the rise of what may be called Reagan-Thatchernomics (in the U.S. it actually started with none other than Jimmy Carter but really became overriding dogma under Reagan, and was continued by every president since, up to Trump, who has continued the "klepto" part while parting ways with the "globalization is always and everywhere good" dogma in favor of his own rightwing-nationalist reactionary economics) with this Wikipedia [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Total_deaths_in_US_mass_shootings.png]bar chart of annual total deaths from mass shootings in the U.S. from 1982 through 2017[/url]. The [url=https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mass_shootings_in_the_United_States]source article for the graph[/url] notes:
[quote]Studies indicate that the rate at which public mass shootings occur has tripled since 2011. Between 1982 and 2011, a mass shooting occurred roughly once every 200 days. However, between 2011 and 2014, that rate has accelerated greatly with at least one mass shooting occurring every 64 days in the United States. According to the non-profit Gun Violence Archive, there were 250 mass shootings between January 1 and August 3, 2019—the 215th day of the year.[/quote]
The above chart only goes through 2017, and it seems the methodologies used for the strikingly disparate "2011-2014: every 64 days" and "250 so far in 2019" reports in the above quote were different, so for consistency, let's have a look at the [url=https://www.gunviolencearchive.org/past-tolls]past tolls for recent years[/url] page over at the Gun Violence Archive - it lists the following numbers of confirmed mass shootings (with links to the full list of incidents, but annoyingly, no total for the associated death toll) for recent years:

2014: 269
2015: 335
2016: 382
2017: 346
2018: 340
2019: 250 [through Aug 3; extrapolates to ~420 for full-year]

Recall Alvin Toffler's Future Shock (1970). Premise is we have a post industrial economy, and change is accelerating; job security is obsolete; career security is obsolete. Industries emerge, thrive, and disappear, taking numerous roles with them. A quick example or two; no one does black tape on clear film printed circuit board artwork any more; silver haloid or kodachrome chemical film exposure and developing versus silicon based CCD image capture.
Product life cycles have become much shorter.
Globalization has meant race to the lowest labor costs.

At one time the seriously mentally ill were treated in institutions sized and funded to get the job done. Now they are much more likely to be given drugs and left to roam free, often homeless and going off their meds, to their own detriment and sometimes of those they encounter.

At one time the laws were enforced. Now politicians pressure the schools and police to downrate or ignore numerous offenses to produce improved crime statistics (cook the books). Hence Nicolas Cruz being free and able to obtain a firearm to shoot up Parkland Florida. Cities, counties, and states declare sanctuary for some classes of crime, causing the release to reoffend of habitual criminals and even aiding their escape from certain authorities.

At one time children were taught morals, taught by experience that their actions and choices have consequences. Recently our society has switched to disconnecting them from any consequences. That does not end well.

World powers go through a cycle of rise, maturation, overextension, decline, and replacement by another. It seems to be driven by something inherent in human psychology and politics. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rise_and_Fall_of_the_Great_Powers#The_United_States[/url]

[QUOTE=kriesel;523111]silver haloid or kodachrome chemical film exposure and developing versus silicon based CCD image capture.[/QUOTE]
To further this point, even CCDs are now mostly obsolete outside of special applications. Most cameras now use CMOS image sensors, even high-end professional digital cameras, not just cellphones.

[QUOTE=nomead;523112]To further this point, even CCDs are now mostly obsolete outside of special applications. Most cameras now use CMOS image sensors, even high-end professional digital cameras, not just cellphones.[/QUOTE]Astronomy is one of the special applications where CCDs still rule supreme. CMOS still can't match their low noise and linearity characteristics, though great improvement of CMOS sensors has taken place in the last few years.

[QUOTE=kriesel;523111]
At one time the seriously mentally ill were treated in institutions sized and funded to get the job done. Now they are much more likely to be given drugs and left to roam free, often homeless and going off their meds, to their own detriment and sometimes of those they encounter.

At one time the laws were enforced. Now politicians pressure the schools and police to downrate or ignore numerous offenses to produce improved crime statistics (cook the books).[/QUOTE]
Our Hero of Dayton (whose name I have eliminated from this post) would seem to illustrate this point:

[url=https://www.apnews.com/83e222c2be834d1fb3b472f9f77aabb2]Classmates: Ohio shooter kept a ‘hit list’ and a ‘rape list’[/url][quote]DAYTON, Ohio (AP) — High school classmates of the gunman who killed nine people early Sunday in Dayton, Ohio, say he was suspended for compiling a "hit list" of those he wanted to kill and a “rape list” of girls he wanted to sexually assault.

The accounts by two former classmates emerged after police said there was nothing in the background of 24-year-old :censored: that would have prevented him from purchasing the .223-caliber rifle with extended ammunition magazines that he used to open fire outside a crowded bar. Police on patrol in the entertainment district fatally shot him less than a minute later.
<snip>
The discovery of the hit list early in 2012 sparked a police investigation, and roughly one-third of Bellbrook students skipped school out of fear, according to an article in the Dayton Daily News.

It’s not clear what became of that investigation. Chief Michael Brown in Sugarcreek Township, which has jurisdiction over the Bellbrook school, did not return calls Sunday about whether his agency investigated the hit list.

Though :censored:, who was 17 at the time, was not named publicly by authorities at the time as the author of the list, the former classmates said it was common knowledge within the school he was the one suspended over the incident.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;523127]Our Hero of Dayton (whose name I have eliminated from this post) would seem to illustrate this point:

[URL="https://www.apnews.com/83e222c2be834d1fb3b472f9f77aabb2"]Classmates: Ohio shooter kept a ‘hit list’ and a ‘rape list’[/URL][/QUOTE]OHOD is too good an appellation. I suggest MAL#n (murderous (synonym for anus) loser) followed by the event sequence number. By some reports it's around 250 now. Total anonymity; deprive all such destructive individuals of the instant fame/infamy they seem to seek.
So, several years after he first appeared on the radar, 20 murders, and dozens of attempted murders too late, but eventually police who were already on scene because they were paid security for a bar administered enough projectiles to resolve his mental issues. This is not the preferred standard of treatment for mental illness, but it does seem to be an increasingly common one. Ammo costs less than haldol, and a one-hour or briefer course is often a permanent resolution.
There was a book review published in Scientific American in March 1991 regarding schizophrenia that sounded quite hopeful for advances in understanding the causes and improving treatment effectiveness. Nearly 30 years later it seems little has changed.
[URL]https://books.google.com/books/about/Schizophrenia_Genesis.html?id=BYxjQgAACAAJ[/URL]

[QUOTE=kriesel;523136]OHOD is too good an appellation. I suggest MAL#n (murderous (synonym for anus) loser) followed by the event sequence number. By some reports it's around 250 now. Total anonymity; deprive all such destructive individuals of the instant fame/infamy they seem to seek.
<snip>[/QUOTE]
To each his own. [i]De gustibus non est disputandum[/i].

It seems that Our Hero of Dayton's own sister was among his victims. Truly exceptional. (I hope!)

For perpetrators of mass shootings, perhaps something like "Our latest NRA poster child" or "Our latest Champion of the Second Amendment" would also be apropos.

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;523140]
For perpetrators of mass shootings, perhaps something like "Our latest NRA poster child" or "Our latest Champion of the Second Amendment" would also be apropos.[/QUOTE]
No, both because the terms are too positive, and they do not represent anyone but themselves and their own twisted thinking and actions. NRA membership and second amendment support includes sheriffs, police, judges, statesmen, actors, and many other very responsible, moral, and accomplished people. Let's see you make a convincing case that the terrorist who determinedly ran down countless French and tourists in Nice with a large truck is a fair representative of the average blue collar European trucker or France as a whole, and that the occasional commercial pilot who intentionally runs a loaded large commercial jet into a mountain or ocean killing hundreds is representative of the many competent professional moral pilots or his nation as a whole. And that 19 individuals in September 2011 causing the deaths of 3000 Americans and others by punching planes into buildings or the dirt are representative of hundreds of millions of middle eastern residents or a particular ethnicity or religion. And that Niels Hogel is representative of medical professionals. [URL]https://www.nytimes.com/2019/06/06/world/europe/germany-nurse-killed-patients.html[/URL]

Call all these murderous individuals what they are: cautionary tales on the importance of mental health and morality, effective timely intervention, and community alertness.

It doesn't matter what you call them.

The REAL problem to be solved is not allowing them access to guns. And since no one can predict in advance who they are, then not allowing anyone to have guns is a REAL solution.

You won't need to "protect" yourself from others with guns if others don't have guns. So the "for-my-protection" argument disappears. And AFAICT tell there isn't any other argument being made.

It would also be easy to spot the criminals with guns since all people with guns would be criminals. No need to try and figure out who is the "good guy" vs the "bad guy". The selection is simple: Got a gun so therefore automatically a bad guy. Round up all the bad guys, they will be easy to spot, they are the ones with guns. Problem solved.

[QUOTE=retina;523146]
You won't need to "protect" yourself from others with guns if others don't have guns. So the "for-my-protection" argument disappears. And AFAICT tell there isn't any other argument being made.

It would also be easy to spot the criminals with guns since all people with guns would be criminals. No need to try and figure out who is the "good guy" vs the "bad guy". The selection is simple: Got a gun so therefore automatically a bad guy. Round up all the bad guys, they will be easy to spot, they are the ones with guns. Problem solved.[/QUOTE]Others will always have guns. Mexico makes it almost impossible for civilians to own guns. They've lost control of some of the country to the criminal cartels. Some of the police are members of the cartels and cooperate in the killings. Criminals will acquire firearms or make them, regardless. Some are even stolen from military or police sources. Do you propose to disarm them too? Who does that, and how do they then disarm or stop the violent criminals, run them down with a squad car?

You also neglect the concept of plain-clothes police.

You also ignore that a smallish person or disabled person or senior citizen is no match for a home invader or 3, with illegal weapons or with knives or clubs, or a street thug wanting her social security check, unless armed. Most self defense uses of firearms result in no shot fired, just scaring the criminal off. And it's not preferable to be stabbed or beaten to death.

The police WILL NOT be there in time, if she's able to contact them at all. And they have no duty to protect any individual citizen. Not even if there's a restraining order ostensibly requiring them to act. (See Warren vs. DC and other case law.)

Wildlife or a neighbor's pets gone out of control don't care that chomping on us is not allowed.

Game population management is performed economically by volunteers who often pay for the privilege. This generally involves firearms.

The basis for the Founders including the second amendment in the US bill of rights was to be able to back up with force, if redress of grievances via the first amendment failed, that there were certain things the government was not permitted by the citizens to do. Government of, by and for the people, not control and subjugation of the people. The idea was that an armed citizenry would far outnumber any army, and deter a coup. There's actually precedent for REQUIRING the citizens to own firearms and keep sufficient supply of consumables and practice regularly. Where people give up their arms, too often democide happens. Unilateral disarmament has repeatedly been tried, and it turns out badly for those populations that are disarmed. But it's very popular with people who are afraid of individual responsibility, or imagine they will be the ones to benefit or be in charge of the new socialist regime. [URL]https://www.hawaii.edu/powerkills/MURDER.HTM[/URL]

There is no scenario of zero risk. Only approaches to minimization of risk or maximizing liberty.

If the number of guns positively correlated to the number of murders, Wyoming would be the bloodiest part of America and places like Chicago, Baltimore, and Washington DC the safest. They're not. The correlation is inverse.

Mass shooters generally choose "gun-free" guaranteed disarmed victim zones. The excess number of deaths per mass shooting is on average 12 more dead in a "gun-free" zone. It's like posted "fire-extinguisher-free" zones would be attractive to arsonists. They recognize the restriction helps them do more damage. Larry Holmes drove past other Aurora CO theaters to do his worst at one that prohibited even off-duty cops from carrying.

Broad-brush gun restriction gets more people killed.

Seems to work just fine in other countries.

[QUOTE=retina;523151]Seems to work just fine in other countries.[/QUOTE]Right, like in 1930s Germany, [URL]http://jpfo.org/alerts2015/alert20150127.htm[/URL]
And various others; [URL]http://jpfo.org/filegen-a-m/deathgc.htm#chart[/URL]
The LOW end estimates add up to 74 MILLION people killed by their own governments in the 20th century because of who they were.

That's about 1-2% per century worldwide average, so let's say 0.02% annually. (This 0.02% is optimistically low, since world population was under 2 billion up to about 1927.). Current US population is ~340 million.
0.02% would be 68,000 annually.

The reported stats for the US are 39,000 deaths by firearm annually, but that contains over 22,000 suicides (volunteers), so compare the average governmental estimated rate of 68,000 to 39,000-22,000 = 17,000, some of which are justified self defense or defense of others. Ratio: optimistically based, governments are [B]4[/B] times more dangerous to their citizens on average, than are armed citizens to others.
There are of course great variations among governments and individuals. Representative democracies that respect the rights of individual citizens tend to produce more freedom and less death than socialist or other totalitarian regimes. A single school board member in Bath Michigan in 1927 killed 45 people and wounded 58, mostly with explosives, mostly on school grounds. [url]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster[/url]



A similar ratio is obtained for concealed carry permittees; [B]several[/B] times LESS LIKELY to be convicted of crime than police officers are (despite the high barriers to charging or convicting an officer).. [url]https://crimeresearch.org/2015/02/comparing-conviction-rates-between-police-and-concealed-carry-permit-holders/[/url]

[QUOTE=kriesel;523144] Let's see you make a convincing case that the terrorist who determinedly ran down countless French and tourists in Nice with a large truck is a fair representative of the average blue collar European trucker or France as a whole
<snip>
And that 19 individuals in September 2011 causing the deaths of 3000 Americans and others by punching planes into buildings or the dirt are representative of hundreds of millions of middle eastern residents or a particular ethnicity or religion.[/QUOTE]In the first place, I am under no obligation to be "fair" -- whatever that may mean to you -- any more than, say, an editorial writer or cartoonist.

In the second place, my citing the NRA and Second Amendment is entirely in line with the subject heading of this thread.

As to your last unreasonable demand: After the 9/11 attacks, Muslims all over the Middle East were -- literally -- dancing in the streets, and holding celebratory feasts. But of course, I'm sure it would be "unfair" to say that this activity indicated widespread approval of the destruction and carnage.

We have plenty of racists, nativists, etc here in the good ol' USA -- especially the one in the White House. But the El Paso massacre did [i]not[/i] prompt any widespread celebrations that I am aware of.

[QUOTE=retina;523146]<snip>
You won't need to "protect" yourself from others with guns if others don't have guns. So the "for-my-protection" argument disappears. And AFAICT tell there isn't any other argument being made.
<snip>[/QUOTE]Ah, but the thing of it is, in the USA you can own a gun as a matter of [i]right[/i]. That means, you don't owe [i]anyone[/i] an explanation. You don't have to make any argument of why you "need" it, or justify your choice in any way. So, lecturing that, say, "there's no reason anyone would need an assault-style weapon" might well be viewed as so much impertinent patronizing.

Now, back in the old days (Colonial times), gun ownership was [i]obligatory[/i] for anyone eligible to join a militia, because militia members had to supply their own arms. Militia duty was mandatory for able-bodied male citizens of eligible age (around 17 to 45). There was in some cases a further proviso that one had to be "of good moral character" to be in the militia. It is perhaps possible that this could be used to provide historical context for implementing background checks and "red-flag laws" in the here and now.

It may be noted that the British [i]tried[/i] to disarm the American colonists in the years immediately prior to the war for independence. They were unsuccessful. The colonists formed their own militias outside the control of the royal colonial governors.

Let’s admit it: This is who we are -By Nestor Ramos
 

I can only add that I am appalled, revolted, depressed, disgusted, and generally discouraged that the country I belong to has degenerated to such a grievous extent.
[url]http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/52045.htm[/url]
[QUOTE][CENTER][B]“This is not who we are.”[/B][/CENTER]

We hear these words again and again in the hours after a mass shooting. A politician will speak them, or perhaps a police officer. They clatter out of the television or the computer screen like an incantation.

And so it was no surprise to find these words echoing through the aftermath of Saturday’s shooting in El Paso — 20 dead — and it was tempting to once again believe them. They are defiant words reserved for moments that demand strength and fury and indignation. They sound earnest and true.

Then, not quite 13 hours later, someone opened fire in Dayton, and the lie revealed itself yet again.

We are what we repeatedly do, and in this country what we repeatedly do is mow down civilians with .223-caliber semiautomatic rifles. The mass shootings pile on top of each other, occurring so close together this weekend that cable news covers them in split-screen, like playoff games.

And so, according to all the available evidence, this is exactly who we are.

It’s obvious if you confront the reality. Mass shootings are so routine now that it is possible, unless you have a personal connection to a particular massacre, to forget quite recent tragedies entirely.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]It is past time to admit that this is precisely who we are: a nation that willingly trades the lives of hundreds of innocent civilians for unencumbered access to the weapons best suited to slaughter them.[/QUOTE]

Update on Our Hero of El Paso
 

[LIST][*]Two more victims succumbed to their injuries; death toll now at 22

[*]Recall the bravado of his manifesto:[quote]My death is likely inevitable. If I’m not killed by the police, then I’ll probably be gunned down by one of the invaders. Capture in this case if far worse than dying during the shooting because I’ll get the death penalty anyway. Worse still is that I would live knowing that my family despises me. This is why I’m not going to surrender even if I run out of ammo. If I’m captured, it will be because I was subdued somehow.[/quote]In real life, he stopped his car, exited, put his hands up, and surrendered to a motorcycle cop who was guarding a crime scene a quarter mile away from the WalMart, declaring he was the shooter.

[*]In his application for a public defender, he said that he has been unemployed for five months and has no income or assets.[/LIST]
So -- no job, no income, no assets, no courage. Yessirree Bob, a real inspiration. :tu:

Maybe he thinks he can use his trial as a forum to air his "manifesto". If so, Our Hero is in for a disappointment.

Emphasis mine. Maybe it's just me, but I feel there is more than a bit of irony in the NRA's chief executive not feeling safe in his own home...

[url=https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2019/08/07/mansion-westlakes-gated-vaquero-community-becomes-part-probe-nras-tax-exempt-status]Mansion in Westlake's gated Vaquero community becomes part of probe into NRA's tax-exempt status[/url][quote]New York authorities are investigating the National Rifle Association's planned purchase of a North Texas mansion for its chief executive Wayne LaPierre, according to reports in the [url=https://www.wsj.com/articles/nra-chief-sought-help-of-groups-ad-agency-in-buying-5-million-mansion-11565145754?mod=hp_lead_pos7]Wall Street Journal[/url] and [url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/documents-show-nra-discussions-to-purchase-luxury-mansion-for-use-of-its-chief-executive/2019/08/06/eb8b0490-b7ce-11e9-b3b4-2bb69e8c4e39_story.html]Washington Post[/url].
<snip>
The house discussions occurred early last year, shortly after the mass shooting at a high school in Parkland, Fla., the Journal reported. It said [b]LaPierre was concerned about his security and wanted another home besides his publicly known address in northern Virginia.[/b][/quote]

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;523347]Emphasis mine. Maybe it's just me, but I feel there is more than a bit of irony in the NRA's chief executive not feeling safe in his own home...

[URL="https://www.dallasnews.com/business/real-estate/2019/08/07/mansion-westlakes-gated-vaquero-community-becomes-part-probe-nras-tax-exempt-status"]Mansion in Westlake's gated Vaquero community becomes part of probe into NRA's tax-exempt status[/URL][/QUOTE]
I wonder how many death threats he gets per month. It's not like certain folks haven't demonstrated their willingness to act violently, on their left, socialist, or marxist views. Ask Rand Paul, Rep Scalise, or the descendants of JFK or Abraham Lincoln, or the next of kin of the current latest crops of mass shooting victims; both Dayton and El Paso were shooters holding views more left than not.

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;523202]
It may be noted that the British [I]tried[/I] to disarm the American colonists in the years immediately prior to the war for independence. They were unsuccessful. The colonists formed their own militias outside the control of the royal colonial governors.[/QUOTE]There were organized colonial militia under the auspices of the colonial governments. There are accounts of the officers of those militia resigning their commissions traceable to the king's government. And being selected as officers of the independent militia composed also of the same members, so as to formalize that they were independent of the British government. The revolution is attributed substantially to the attempt at disarmament. And the second amendment to the recent experience with their former government's attempt to disarm them.

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;523184]In the first place, I am under no obligation to be "fair" -- whatever that may mean to you -- any more than, say, an editorial writer or cartoonist.

In the second place, my citing the NRA and Second Amendment is entirely in line with the subject heading of this thread.

As to your last unreasonable demand: After the 9/11 attacks, Muslims all over the Middle East were -- literally -- dancing in the streets, and holding celebratory feasts. But of course, I'm sure it would be "unfair" to say that this activity indicated widespread approval of the destruction and carnage.

We have plenty of racists, nativists, etc here in the good ol' USA -- especially the one in the White House. But the El Paso massacre did [I]not[/I] prompt any widespread celebrations that I am aware of.[/QUOTE]I think your use of one definition of fair is more a debating tactic than a plausible choice; I meant 2a while you have responded as if I meant 1a at [URL]https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/fair[/URL] (Or maybe fair is just tricky, with so many definitions as an adjective). It sounds though like you're claiming the right to be as inaccurate and unfair and unreasonable as you like. Everyone's supposed to just accept it when you do?! There comes a level of misrepresentation that qualifies as dishonesty.

An NRA poster child is someone like the teen I saw at the ESPN Great Outdoor Games, who beat the repeat middleage winner of the sporting clays competition with calm and flair. It went to a tiebreaker round, where the competitors have 2.5 seconds to break 3 clays with a double-barrel shotgun, which means at least one shell reload and 3 hits in 2.5 seconds on small moving targets and swinging the gun through quite an angle to acquire the targets. He shot a perfect round of 20 sets of clays with enough time left over to target the largest remaining fragment of the third clay with the fourth shell. Repeatedly, until finally there was a round the older guy missed a clay. And yet the teen moved as if he had all the time in the world. Or some Olympic biathlon winner. Neither of which use firearms to harm people that don't meet the standard of criminal that should be stopped. But it may include some youngster home alone that uses his knowledge and experience from hunting, to fend off a home invasion and possible kidnapping or worse.

The likes of the Dayton or El Paso shooters if not killed or captured rather quickly, end up on the posters of the FBI most wanted criminals series.
The NRA trains law enforcement officers and trains the trainers to shoot well and judiciously.

That DJTrump is purportedly a racist is political propaganda that did not exist before he began to run for office. The photos with and praise by minorities from then are there to be found.

I'm not aware of having made or used the word demand or the equivalent in what I think you responded to. If you meant "Call all these murderous individuals what they are: cautionary tales on the importance of mental health and morality, effective timely intervention, and community alertness.", that's neither a demand nor unreasonable. It's a proposal of returning to what worked up to about 1970 or so, until we stopped doing it.

Introducing new "red flag" laws is unnecessary. It's also perilous to the rights of many millions to introduce them, since many such bills do away with due process or even the right of the accused to know he's been accused until nervous armed officers show up to take his legally owned property and too often his life on the spot, based perhaps on no more than a baseless claim by a scared irrational person or vindictive person. Some women's shelters affiliated people have pointed out that red flag reports can be misused to disarm someone to make them an easier target for a stalker or abusive significant other or ex-partner. Existing law is widespread providing for involuntary commitment of the seriously mentally ill upon due process, and more immediately, 72-hour emergency holds have been available for decades, where a person can be involuntarily held in a highly secured hospital ward upon referral to police and a subsequent medical examination indicating it is warranted. I was a guardian for such a person subsequent to that emergency process. It was quite an experience to observe her making perfect sense for a quarter hour at a time or more and then exhibiting symptoms of paranoid schizophrenia including auditory hallucination (identifying and responding to sounds no one else heard).

[quote=kriesel;523354]I wonder how many death threats he [[color=blue]Wayne LaPierre[/color]] gets per month. It's not like certain folks haven't demonstrated their willingness to act violently, on their left, socialist, or marxist views. Ask Rand Paul, Rep Scalise, or the descendants of JFK or Abraham Lincoln, or the next of kin of the current latest crops of mass shooting victims; both Dayton and El Paso were shooters holding views more left than not.[/quote]
I have no idea how many death threats Wayne LaPierre gets per month. I also have no idea how many death threats any of [i]Il Duce[/i]'s prominent critics get per month. It is curious, however that, given the endless chorusing of "we need guns for safety!" the head of the NRA would seek safety not in armament, but by moving to a gated mansion -- on somebody else's dime. Perhaps he should propose this solution for [i]all[/i] NRA members worried about marauders in their neighborhoods.

It would be difficult to ask the descendants of Abraham Lincoln anything, since there are none. Only his eldest son Robert lived to adulthood, and he had no children of his own. (He did, however, witness the assassination of President Garfield, and was nearby when President McKinley was shot.) In any case, I have never heard John Wilkes Booth described as acting out of motives "more left than not." He was a racist who, upon hearing Lincoln in a speech on April 11, 1865 propose granting the right to vote to former slaves said, [quote]That means n:censored:r citizenship. Now, by God, I'll put him through. That is the last speech he will ever make.[/quote] He followed through on that threat.

I would argue that Lincoln's and JFK's assassinations are cases where adequate security (something you often stress WRT public events) could have been preventative. The man assigned to protect Lincoln was actually in the same tavern as Booth when Booth left to shoot Lincoln. The bodyguard remained and continued drinking. By the time Kennedy was shot, the Secret Service was tasked with protecting US Presidents. Had they taken such obvious precautions as making sure that windows overlooking the motorcade's route didn't have snipers lurking, Oswald wouldn't have had the chance to shoot Kennedy.

If you want to cite an example of a presidential assassin with "leftist" views, I would suggest Leon Czolgosz, who shot President McKinley. He was a self-proclaimed anarchist, but was such a whack job that other anarchists didn't want him at their meetings.

[quote=kriesel;523355]The revolution is attributed substantially to the attempt at disarmament.[/quote]"Is attributed" by whom? It isn't mentioned in the list of grievances in the Declaration of Independence. Besides which, the British didn't seek to disarm the colonists until around 1774, by which time the independence movement was well under way, prompted by such things as the Stamp Act, the Tea Act, and the Coercive ("Intolerable") Acts.

[quote=kriesel;523360]That DJTrump is purportedly a racist is political propaganda that did not exist before he began to run for office. [/quote] I guess you never heard of that [url=https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0034.pdf]consent decree[/url] back in the day:[quote]UNITED STATES OF AMERICA,
Plaintiff,

- against -

FRED C. TRUMP, DONALD TRUMP
and TRUMP MANAGEMENT, INC.,
Defendants.

This action was instituted by the United States of America on October 15, 1973, pursuant to the Fair Housing Act of 1968, 42 u.s.c. §3601 [u]et seq[/u].

The claim of the United States is that the defendants have failed and neglected to exercise their affirmative and nondelegable duty under the Fair Housing Act to assure compliance by their subordinates, with the result that equal housing opportunity has been denied to substantial numbers of persons and that defendant's subordinates have failed to carry out their obligations under the Act.[/quote]As is standard with such things, Defendants don't have to admit doing what they did, but, in order to avoid having the case being tried on the merits, agree to stop doing it.

I guess you also never heard of [i]Il Duce[/i]'s campaign as "Birther-in-Chief" well before he decided to run for president. You can deny that [i]that[/i] was racist till the cows come home, but only racists will claim to believe you.

Then, too, takes one to know one... There are Richard Spencer, David Duke, and countless others of their ilk, who enthusiastically claim [i]Il Duce[/i] as one of their own. All taken in by liberal media propaganda, no doubt.

[i]Any[/i]how, Mr. LaPierre has been warning [i]Il Duce[/i], who in the wake of the latest massacres, has been mouthing amenability to stronger background checks and the like, that his supporters aren't going to like it. So yes, I say Our Heroes of El Paso and Dayton are indeed NRA poster children!

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;523394]I have no idea how many death threats Wayne LaPierre gets per month.[/QUOTE]And how many of those are that he would be shot.

A comment on [URL="https://twitter.com/robmtaub/status/1159817045137121280"]Trumps's reaction to a recent incident[/URL].

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;523394]It would be difficult to ask the descendants of Abraham Lincoln anything, since there are none. Only his eldest son Robert lived to adulthood, and he had no children of his own.[/QUOTE][STRIKE]descendants[/STRIKE]nearest living relatives then.[QUOTE]I would argue that Lincoln's and JFK's assassinations are cases where adequate security (something you often stress WRT public events) could have been preventative. ... Had they taken such obvious precautions as making sure that windows overlooking the motorcade's route didn't have snipers lurking, Oswald wouldn't have had the chance to shoot Kennedy.[/QUOTE]Yes, or had they done a better job of keeping track of someone like Oswald, or had they made it harder at the target end, such as by covered armored cars rather than completely exposed in a convertible, or had they not swapped out the usual security measures for substitutes, etc.[QUOTE]
If you want to cite an example of a presidential assassin with "leftist" views, I would suggest Leon Czolgosz, who shot President McKinley. He was a self-proclaimed anarchist, but was such a whack job that other anarchists didn't want him at their meetings.[/QUOTE]Booth was a racist from a theatrical family, which makes him part of the long tradition of the left being racist and discriminating against individuals based upon race; see the origin of the KKK, and the tradition continuing to this day of this type of professional liar (actor) and their left support and racism extending to most Hollywood figures, with more than their share also of sexual assaulters including pedophiles. Post civil war attempts by southern Democrats to keep freed blacks down included gun control, aimed partly at keeping the area safe for KKK members (Democrats) wearing their white sheets and committing acts including kidnapping and lynching blacks who had dared smile at or speak to a white woman.

[QUOTE]"Is attributed" by whom?[/QUOTE]Numerous sources including serious historians.

[QUOTE]I guess you never heard of that [URL="https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0034.pdf"]consent decree[/URL]
[/QUOTE]I guess you've never heard of settling on advice of counsel despite the generally favorable facts of a case, as a method of limiting costs and risks and moving on from distractions, often referred to as a business decision. The American legal system in my experience is sometimes exploited by greedy or politically motivated persons as a legal channel of extortion.

[QUOTE]Mr. LaPierre has been warning [I]Il Duce[/I], who in the wake of the latest massacres, has been mouthing amenability to stronger background checks and the like, that his supporters aren't going to like it.[/QUOTE]LaPierre is being truthful about that, and doing the job he's paid to do. Putting aside the NRA for a moment, you'd be ok with say the ACLU selling out our rights and supporting infringement on other constitutional rights, such as speech or privacy, rather than objecting to it? That seems to be what you want from the NRA; to act against the interests and desires of its millions of members and the citizens of the USA. The NRA is hardly the extreme organization that it is often portrayed as. It could be more true to the constitution. There are other state or national scope organizations that take positions of less compromise than the NRA, such as Gun Owners of America, which appears to have the respect of libertarians like Ron Paul. [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_Owners_of_America[/URL]
Universal background checks is a generally atrocious proposal to require federal government permission (intrusion) into a private property transaction between two citizens, even if they live in the same county or home. A mother wishing to gift or sell or lend a legally owned firearm to her own adult responsible child knows him better than the government hopefully ever will. Some background check legislation requires even very temporary transfers: here, mr. gunsmith, my front sight got broken, please fix it (two transfers, two checks, two check fees, not unusual for that to run to $50 to $100). A broken sight repair can be fixed while you wait and cost only a few dollars. Should the government be notified every time you ask someone to repair any of your legally owned property? Or increase the total cost of a repair 20-fold or more? Or privileged to prevent its return to you? The most common reason for denial is error, which takes weeks to correct. Or you're in a group hunting party and someone's hunting rifle malfunctioned, or the short-term situation is such that another member would be more effective with your semi-auto shotgun than the bolt rifle he brought. If you lend him a shotgun without interrupting the day's hunt to drive 30 minutes each way to a busy sporting goods store to wait in line to effect the 30-minutes-of-hunting loan of the shotgun to someone you've known and trusted in the woods with you for decades, and later waste another 90 minutes that way to get your gun back, should you both be now considered felons? The risk of harming someone or being harmed by auto accident during those useless background check trips is not zero, but the chance of the firearm being misused while transferred is zero. Some of this legislation is amazingly stupid. But we're supposed to take the word of someone who's probably never touched a firearm other than perhaps a film prop with blanks, what's best for us in a world they never enter. Ridiculous how arrogant they are in their ignorance.
America is supposed to be about freedom and opportunity, not driving risk to zero, which is not possible. Even in prisons, people make and use weapons on each other.

The loonies are running the asylum
 

[url]https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/gaming/2019/08/08/walmart-mass-shooting-stores-removing-violent-video-game-displays/1962146001/[/url] [quote]Following two shootings inside its stores, Walmart is [b]removing violent video game displays and signs from stores[/b], the retailer confirmed Thursday.

...

While Walmart officials said earlier in the week that there has been [b]no change in policy regarding gun sales[/b], House said Friday they were still reviewing policies.[/quote]Cognitive dissonance at its best. :tu:

[quote=kriesel;523410][quote=Dr Sardonicus;523394]I guess you never heard of that [url=https://www.clearinghouse.net/chDocs/public/FH-NY-0024-0034.pdf]consent decree[/url][/quote]I guess you've never heard of settling on advice of counsel despite the generally favorable facts of a case, as a method of limiting costs and risks and moving on from distractions, often referred to as a business decision. The American legal system in my experience is sometimes exploited by greedy or politically motivated persons as a legal channel of extortion.[/quote]As my mother would say, "What's that got to do with the price of fish?" Meaning, your insinuation lacks any foundation showing relevance to the case in question. I seriously doubt your experience with the American legal system involves being on the wrong end of a Federal housing-discrimination lawsuit.

And the consent decree I cited was pursuant to a housing-discrimination lawsuit filed by the US Department of Justice -- not an individual -- as indicated by the Plaintiff being UNITED STATES OF AMERICA as I quoted. And this was 1973 -- during the Nixon Administration. There was a federal investigation that clearly established the Trumps' racially discriminatory housing practices. [i]Il Duce[/i] wanted to fight the lawsuit. I maintain that the Trumps settled on advice of counsel -- that if the case had gone to court they would have lost.

I am familiar with any number of civil cases in the news where Defendants settled lawsuits because the facts were against them. Alex Jones ([i]Il Duce[/i]'s favorite source for news), for example, backed down in 2018, after initially vowing to fight, in the face of a 2017 libel suit by Chobani.

I am also familiar with criminal cases in the news where defense counsel offered only incredibly feeble arguments because that's all they could muster. Your above insinuation reminds me powerfully of those.

But, just to be fair, I will address your apparently purely rhetorical question: I [i]have[/i] heard of what are generally referred to as "nuisance lawsuits" -- lawsuits filed purely to get a money settlement out of court on complaints of dubious merit. Personal injury is a particularly rich area for these. These, however, are generally merely financially motivated. Politically-motivated PI lawsuits are generally against municipalities, other levels of government, governmental agencies, or public officials or servants for acts in their official capacity. When it comes to politically motivated lawsuits against individuals not serving in government, the first thing that comes to mind is SLAPP suits -- "Strategic Lawsuits Against Public Participation." These are suits filed by, say, developers against individuals who publicly oppose their plans during the process of getting them officially approved.

[quote=kriesel;523410][quote=Dr Sardonicus;523394]"Is attributed" by whom?[/quote]
Numerous sources including serious historians.[/quote]
This reminds me of a scene near the end of [i]Raiders of the Lost Ark[/i]:
[quote]Brody: The Ark is a source of unspeakable power and it has to be researched!

Maj. Eaton: And it will be, I assure you, Doctor Brody, Doctor Jones. We have top men working on it right now.

Jones: Who?!

Maj. Eaton: [i]Top[/i]... men.[/quote]

[quote=kriesel;523410]Some background check legislation requires even very temporary transfers: here, mr. gunsmith, my front sight got broken, please fix it (two transfers, two checks, two check fees, not unusual for that to run to $50 to $100).[/quote]Oh, no! The sky is falling! There's just one thing to do -- run out and buy more guns! Which is, of course, what the NRA wants its members to do.

Sometimes people just don't want to accept the facts
 

[url]https://phys.org/news/2019-08-weapons-fuel-america-mass.html[/url]

Excuses, excuses, excuses; used to divert attention from the real problem.[quote]Mental illness. Video games. The Internet. These are excuses offered by the U.S. President and his supporters for a scourge of mass killings. But five decades of empirical research by preeminent criminal law expert Professor Franklin Zimring tell a different story: [b]The core of our country's deadly violence is access to weaponry.[/b][/quote][quote]"Does the availability of guns increase the death rate from assault? Of course, it does," Zimring said. "Trying to reduce death totals without discussing guns" belies logic and "ignores risks to public health." [/quote][quote]But when it comes to lethal violence, the U.S. far outpaces the rest: a toxic brew of permissive gun laws and weapons on the ground.[/quote]So does reducing access to weapons also reduce related crimes? Of course it does.[quote]A 1994 assault weapons ban, designed to reduce the number of deadly mass shootings nationwide, restricted civilian ownership of new military-grade weapons. The result? Gun massacres dropped significantly during the ban and then skyrocketed after it expired in 2004.[/quote]Sorry, more facts that we need to ignore and pretend don't exist. Please go back to your normal reading of the NRA mantra: moar guns, moor guns, more guns.

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;523637]I seriously doubt your experience with the American legal system involves being on the wrong end of a Federal housing-discrimination lawsuit.[/QUOTE]Correct, I've never myself been either charged in court with a crime or sued by any Federal or state or local agency. That is not the same as saying I can have no knowledge or opinion about it. If that were the case, it would also exclude most attorneys in good standing, judges, etc. And incidentally, I have had some rental showings which appeared to be attempts by would-be renters at entrapment.
[QUOTE]
I [I]have[/I] heard of what are generally referred to as "nuisance lawsuits" -- lawsuits filed purely to get a money settlement out of court on complaints of dubious merit. Personal injury is a particularly rich area for these. ...[/QUOTE]Yes there are a variety of such. Including coercion by government, using its size and authority and deep pockets to intimidate a target into settling.
[QUOTE]
Oh, no! The sky is falling! There's just one thing to do -- run out and buy more guns! Which is, of course, what the NRA wants its members to do.[/QUOTE]That's a silly digression from the topic at hand which was government imposing unreasonable and costly interference in maintenance of property already owned. While not entirely analogous, because there's no constitutional guarantee for automobile ownership, assuming you own a car, how would you like a government intrusion that costs 20 times the actual maintence or more, which would be several hundred dollars every time you have the car's oil changed or the tires rotated and balanced? And if they confuse you with someone else you don't get your car back?

[QUOTE=retina;523757][URL]https://phys.org/news/2019-08-weapons-fuel-america-mass.html[/URL]

Excuses, excuses, excuses; used to divert attention from the real problem.So does reducing access to weapons also reduce related crimes? Of course it does.Sorry, more facts that we need to ignore and pretend don't exist.[/QUOTE]That article is not news or fair. It is political advocacy pretending to be objective.

See [URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Assault_Weapons_Ban#Effects[/URL]
Of the many listed studies, one purports to show an increase after the expiration of the 10 year US assault weapon ban. And the Rand Corp meta-analysis points out flaws in that study.
Even the mass shootings graph at that article shows an upward trend including during the assault weapons ban. Overall, violent crime has gone down while number of firearms present in the US has gone up.

Australia's rather broader ban on semiautos has not prevented mass shootings there.
Even if a house to house search confiscating all semiautos of any type were perfectly performed, it would not prevent mass shootings using the "New York reload", which involves a backpack and lots of cheap revolvers, and maybe some speedloaders.

The US demographics include a substantial component that have immigrated from less developed countries. The European countries to which it is often compared have their own recent issues with immigration and corresponding increase in rape and other violent crime, including large mass shootings with illegal weapons. Classification differences between nations make per-capita rate comparisons problematic. The UK is known to have engaged in systematic down-rating of crime as a means of under-reporting.

But comparison among the 50 US states show violent crime, including specifically comparing gun murder rates, correlates NEGATIVELY, not positively, with gun ownership rates. On a smaller scale, mass shooters usually choose well documented "gun-free" zones in which to commit their murders. The average number of deaths per mass shooting attempt was determined some years back as 14+ in "gun-free" zones, 2+ in constitution-respected zones. In one case, a barber shop attempt, one of the patrons was armed and able to end the attack. It's a last resort. Clearly there is both a deterrent effect, and a practical stopping the madness application.

Compare to arson. Do we ban fire extinguishers and pretend that will help? No. Do we ban matches, or accelerants, or how many matches a person can carry? No. We ban and prosecute their misuse. Japan has hardly any firearms. An arsonist killed over 20 there with one fire.

Compare to automobiles. After a bad DUI or terrorist misuse of a large vehicle, are there calls for banning SUVs or freight trucks? No. Vehicles in the US produce more deaths than firearms in the US. Do the media and politicians slander and libel all car owners, manufacturers, and repair shops? No.

IN ALL CASES, the legitimate use of the items outweighs their rate of misuse.
But firearms are treated differently by many, because they are afraid of them, or because they project their own lack of self control onto others, or because they're fine with using totalitarian government for imposing their choices onto everyone.

"The [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luby%27s_shooting"]Luby's shooting[/URL] in October 1991, which left 23 people dead and 27 wounded, was another factor." Texas law at the time prohibited concealed carry in that instance, so Suzanna Gratia Hupp had to watch her parents die, while her firearm was in her car, instead of possibly stopping it with fewer injuries and deaths. "Gun control", the political euphemism for unconstitutional and counterproductive restrictions, produces more death. Prohibition or location restriction does not affect criminals. Registration is not required of criminals prohibited from possessing firearms; they are exempt from registration requirements, because requiring registration would violate their fifth amendment right not to incriminate themselves. Background checks don't much affect criminals; they can buy a stolen gun from another criminal, perhaps even smuggled into the country, or stolen from police or military stocks.

I have myself been in tight spots, outnumbered, and had weapons, and so did the others (one of whom was certainly a multiply convicted felon) and everyone got out of those situations without a scratch. I didn't go looking for trouble, it came to me. A firearm or other weapon is not always actively used, to prevent or stop crime; very often its mere availability makes a criminal attempt too unappealing and uncertain of outcome. These preventions of crime tend not to show up in the relevant statistics. Polling techniques have been employed to document the occurrence rate as of order a million plus per year of crimes stopped or prevented by legitimate presence or use of firearms.

Over the course of most of a lifetime, starting from age 12, the statistics were 73% of females and 89% of males would be subjected to violent crime. These data come from 1987. The stats have improved since, and note that this is around the time that the wave of concealed carry legislation began, starting with Florida. [URL]https://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/llv.pdf[/URL]
All those claims made state by state that the streets would run red were disproven. Generally, the worse the barriers to self defense, the worse the local experience is with violence, whether the crime is committed with guns, machetes, knives, clubs, or fist and feet. Fists and feet account for more death annually than all types of rifles, per the FBI stats. [URL]https://dailycaller.com/2018/02/19/knives-gun-control-fbi-statistics/[/URL] The article goes on to point out that stringent-legal-gun-owner-restriction states Illinois and California have a death rate by handgun disproportionately HIGHER than the average of the US. Illinois statistics are dominated by Chicago which has its own issues and until recently (McDonald vs. Chicago) exceptionally restrictive gun restrictions.

[URL]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald_v._City_of_Chicago[/URL]
[URL]https://www.frontpagemag.com/fpm/250166/bill-whittle-number-one-bullet-truthrevoltorg[/URL]

There are none so blind as those that refuse to see.

[QUOTE]That article is not news or fair. It is political advocacy pretending to be objective.[/QUOTE]
And what kind of "advocacy" are you [STRIKE]perpetrating[/STRIKE] promoting?

[QUOTE=retina;523757]<snip>
So does reducing access to weapons also reduce related crimes? Of course it does[/QUOTE]This idea is even more cogent when applied to suicides. In [url=https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/data/nvsr/nvsr68/nvsr68_09-508.pdf]Deaths: Final Data for 2017[/url] (near the bottom of page 35) we see that over half the suicides in the US are by firearms. (The proportion is higher for men, lower for women.)

However, the CDC is [i]by law[/i] (the "Dickey Amendment") prohibited from advocating gun control. Thus, in. e.g. [url=https://www.cdc.gov/violenceprevention/suicide/prevention.html]Suicide: Prevention Strategies[/url] the CDC uses vague locutions like [quote]Reduce access to lethal means among persons at risk of suicide[/quote]in order to avoid running afoul of [strike]the NRA[/strike] the Dickey Amendment.

Here in the good ol' USA, as shown in, e.g. [url=https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11411188]Firearms and suicide.[/url][quote]Abstract

The evidence linking firearms in the home to risk for suicide is reviewed. These data come from epidemiological, case-control, quasiexperimental, and prospective studies. The convergent finding from this wide range of studies is that there is a strong relationship between firearms in the home and risk for suicide, most firmly established in the United States.[/quote]

Perhaps the NRA can start a public-relations campaign advocating the usefulness of having guns around the house, to help facilitate weaklings weeding themselves out of the gene pool.

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;523939]Perhaps the NRA can start a public-relations campaign advocating the usefulness of having guns around the house, to help facilitate weaklings weeding themselves out of the gene pool.[/QUOTE]Sounds like a bloody good idea to me!

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;523939]This idea is even more cogent when applied to suicides.[/QUOTE]The stats I saw was that an individual in the USA was 60 [B]times[/B] more likely to die by a suicide by firearm than a mass shooting. And 4 [B]times[/B] more likely to day from an accidental discharge than a mass shooting. Looks like the gun is a risk factor.

Gun vs most other suicide forms:
Gun in house also for a rapid fulfillment of desire. No need to climb to the top of a building or bridge.
Gun in house is private. Getting spotted on a bridge or building and getting stopped is a possibility.
Gun allows suicide to occur even when others are nearby that might stop other attempts (like poisoning or hanging).
Like above, guns prevent the discovery of a note to allow for rescue after the attempt has commenced. [I have a friend who is alive now because another friend intervened after a poisoning and cutting attempt was started.]
Guns tend to be successful. Poisonings have a significant failure rate. Bridge jumping into water has survivors. (Some who report regret after the initiation, but before the striking of the water.)
Data from Australia after their law change in the 1980's showed death by firearm drop after the guns started to go away. It continued to decline. If I am not mistaken, the data show that the total suicide rate also dropped (that being that the firearm attempts were in large part were just prevented not transmuted.)

[edit]One further item: Guns [U]tend[/U] to lead to the loved ones finding a gore scene. Jumping from a building does not, unless it was also for show.[/edit]

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;523944]<snip>
[edit]One further item: Guns [U]tend[/U] to lead to the loved ones finding a gore scene. Jumping from a building does not, unless it was also for show.[/edit][/QUOTE]
I know of an instance of this. Some neighbors of mine had a granddaughter whom I first met as a young child, and who, they told me, when she was a bit older, had found the body of an adult acquaintance when she and some friends went to visit. I don't remember the circumstances but I think it was natural causes.

She weathered that traumatic experience, grew to adulthood, married, and was mother to a son.

Her father, my neighbors' son, however, apparently "had issues." My neighbors had to move, frailty necessitating living in a one-level house. About seven years ago, after the move, they were on vacation out of state. Their son went there, sat on their couch, and blew his head off with a shotgun. It is possible he wanted his parents to find the "gore scene," but that is not what happened.

What did happen is, his daughter, who had previously found an acquaintance unexpectedly dead, went there to water the plants or something, and found her father's body in a [i]very[/i] gory scene. From what I heard, she tottered outside, screaming her head off.

A few years later, I saw my former neighbors, and asked about their granddaughter, who, I had noticed, hadn't been around in a while. They brought me up to date. She was dead. Drug overdose. Whether intentional or accidental I did not ask and do not know.

[url=https://www.apnews.com/f56b7776bbd940ecaee34845fca86da6]Appeals court reinstates lawsuit in SC church shooting case[/url][quote]The 4th Circuit panel found that an examiner who conducted the background check on Roof failed to follow a mandatory procedure when she did not contact the arresting agency.

“Once the Examiner’s inquiry revealed that the Columbia PD was the arresting agency and that it had the report, she was required to contact it. Her decision not to do so involved no permissible exercise of discretion,” Judge Roger Gregory wrote for the federal panel in Friday’s ruling.

“The Government can claim no immunity in these circumstances,” he wrote.

The ruling means the lawsuit can move forward.[/quote]

[url=https://www.apnews.com/8d8ea557211f4b8db01598bdfa743dd9]Police chief: 5 dead in West Texas mass shooting[/url][quote]ODESSA, Texas (AP) — At least five people were dead after a gunman who hijacked a postal service vehicle in West Texas shot more than 20 people, authorities said Saturday. The gunman was killed and three law enforcement officers were among the injured.

Odessa Police Chief Michael Gerke said that in addition to the injured officers, there were at least 21 civilian shooting victims. He said at least five people died. He did not say whether the shooter was among the dead. It was not clear whether he was including the five dead among the at least 21 civilian shooting victims.[/quote]
Our Hero of West Texas, now deceased, is described as a white male in his 30's, but is not yet publicly identified.

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;524952][url=https://www.apnews.com/8d8ea557211f4b8db01598bdfa743dd9]Police chief: 5 dead in West Texas mass shooting[/url]
Our Hero of West Texas, now deceased, is described as a white male in his 30's, but is not yet publicly identified.[/QUOTE]Seven, and counting.

[QUOTE=xilman;524987]Seven, and counting.[/QUOTE]
Yes, and another in life-threatenng condition.

This killing spree started with a [i]traffic stop[/i]. Our Hero started shooting at the State Troopers who pulled him over for not signaling a left turn.

There's a news conference scheduled in a little less than an hour (noon local time). Oh, [b]PLEASE[/b] don't give Our Hero's name, please please please please [i]please[/i]....

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;524989]Yes, and another in life-threatenng condition.

This killing spree started with a [i]traffic stop[/i]. Our Hero started shooting at the State Troopers who pulled him over for not signaling a left turn.

There's a news conference scheduled in a little less than an hour (noon local time). Oh, [b]PLEASE[/b] don't give Our Hero's name, please please please please [i]please[/i]....[/QUOTE]You Americans do seem to go in for curious spectator sports.

I am (not) the NRA
 

[url=https://www.apnews.com/8fa7060adaef4eae9c0a4dcb7f6782d6]Gun owners find new outlets in the midst of a weakened NRA[/url][quote]Long viewed as the most powerful gun lobby in the world, the NRA has been facing internal and external pressures over its operations and spending habits. Law enforcement authorities have launched probes that threaten its non-profit status and there has been a revolt by members who are questioning the NRA’s finances and leadership.

The group’s former president, Oliver North, and its longtime top lobbyist have left.

Among the headline-grabbing details are allegations that its longtime CEO, Wayne LaPierre, expensed hundreds of thousands of dollars in wardrobe purchases from a Hollywood clothier and spent thousands traveling on private jets.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;524989] Our Hero[/QUOTE]He is NOT my hero. Why don't you leave that lame concept for some lame board elsewhere. Call them the insane dude, criminal, idiot, moron, evil one, or something else. Don't call them a hero even in jest.

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;525017]He is NOT my hero. Why don't you leave that lame concept for some lame board elsewhere. Call them the insane dude, criminal, idiot, moron, evil one, or something else. Don't call them a hero even in jest.[/QUOTE]Amen to that. I propose "Texas turnpike turkey" since it started on I20. Or perhaps the Odessa oddball. His fifteen minutes of fame were over already before he was named. His felonious acts were promptly upstaged and outdone by a California boat fire.

Another Hollywood take on the right to call it quits
 

[url]https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Million_Dollar_Baby[/url]

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;525017]Don't call them a hero even in jest.[/QUOTE]My usage of [i]Our Hero[/i], rather than "in jest," was ironic. Lacking a suitable generic term meaning "anything [i]but[/i] a hero" that seemed to fit mass shootings, I trusted that readers would get my meaning. I am sorry for those of you that have limited appreciation for irony. All I can say is, for God's sake, do [i]not[/i] read Marc Antony's funeral oration in [i]Julius Caesar[/i]. When he says "Brutus is an honorable man," he means [i]the exact opposite![/i]

I have looked at a number of possible generic descriptors, e.g coward, caitiff, miscreant, but none seemed satisfactory. I reject the idea of coming up with a "clever" name for each individual perpetrator, on the grounds that they're not worth the effort.

I kept digging for an appropriate term, though, knowing that if nothing else I might enlarge my vocabulary, and have finally come across something that seems to fit the circumstances of mass shootings rather well. It's a well-known term, but one often used in a broader, more innocuous way than its etymology indicates.

My old Merriam-Webster Second International unabridged has the following entries. (I have omitted pronunciation and examples)

[b]amuck, amok,[/b] [i]adj[/i] [Malay [i]amoq[/i] furious] Possessed with homicidal mania or murderous frenzy; [b] -- [i]adv.[/b][/i] in a frenzied, murderous manner, as to [i]run amuck[/i].

[b]amuck, amok,[/b] [i]n[/i]. [b]1.[/b] A Malay running wild in a murderous frenzy, and attacking everyone he meets. [i]obs.[/i]

[b]2.[/b] (Usually [i]amok[/i].) A nervous malady or seizure peculiar to the Malays, resulting in a murderous frenzy.

[b]3.[/b] (Usually [i]amok[/i].) An act of running amuck.

At the current online Merriam-Webster we [url=https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/amok]find[/url]:

[quote]amok noun
\ ə-ˈmək , -ˈmäk \
variants: or less commonly amuck \ ə-​ˈmək \
Definition of amok (Entry 1 of 3)

: an episode of sudden mass assault against people or objects usually by a single individual following a period of brooding that has traditionally been regarded as occurring especially in Malaysian culture but is now increasingly viewed as psychopathological behavior occurring worldwide in numerous countries and cultures[/quote]

and

[quote]amok adjective
variants: or less commonly amuck
Definition of amok (Entry 3 of 3)
: possessed with or motivated by a murderous or violently uncontrollable frenzy[/quote]

Note the transition from "peculiar to the Malays" to "now increasingly viewed as psychopathological behavior occurring worldwide in numerous countries and cultures." So perhaps something like a generic name of "Ron Amok" would be suitable for mass shooters.

Why all the effort to find a name/term? It doesn't matter. It just wastes your time.

Just call them "the gunman". Generic, simple, understandable.

[SIZE="2"][B][COLOR="DarkOrchid"]The right to kill oneself posts have been moved into a new thread.[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE]
[url]https://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=24746[/url]

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;525109][SIZE=2][B][COLOR=DarkOrchid]The right to kill oneself posts[/COLOR][/B][/SIZE][/QUOTE]
That is bad, I still want to have the right to kill my own posts! :razz:

[url]https://www.salon.com/2019/09/07/the-gun-lobbys-most-pernicious-myth-there-is-no-good-guy-with-a-gun/[/url]
[quote]We don’t have more automobiles than people in the United States of America. We don’t have more televisions than people. We don’t have more radios than people. We don’t have more cell phones than people.

What we do have is more guns than people.

A recent report published by the Small Arms Survey in Geneva, Switzerland, found that there are more than 393 million firearms owned by civilians in this country. We have a population of 326 million. That means there are 120.5 firearms for every 100 American citizens, according to the Washington Post. It’s a fact. If every single person in the United States possessed a gun, including babies, elderly people and the infirm — even including those hospitalized and on their deathbeds — there would still be 67 million guns left over. Sixty-seven million.

The number of guns owned by civilians is an outrage, a profanity, a sign that this country has lost its collective mind. But not to the National Rifle Association it isn’t. Not to the Gun Owners of America, another major gun lobby organization with over two million members, which is frequently critical of the NRA for being too soft on gun rights. These well-funded lobbies for gun manufacturers and gun owners have long taken the position that what we need is more guns, not less. They say that more guns equal less crime, despite FBI statistics that show conclusively that violent crime, and especially crimes involving firearms, is higher per capita in areas of the country with more guns.

<snip>

In a country with more guns than people, the “good guy with a gun” myth is an obscenity. It’s a lie. Guns don’t save us. They kill us. [/quote]The way to stop a bad guy with a bomb is a good guy with a bomb. :loco:

As Halloween approaches, perhaps this [URL="https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-50063364"]cautionary tale[/URL] is still relevant.

Next Halloween, rent it out as a haunted house!
 

[url=https://apnews.com/aa2c4f46bae74a6e97f12dc1b9855934]4 dead in Halloween party shooting in San Francisco Bay Area[/url][quote]ORINDA, Calif. (AP) — Four people were killed and at least three were wounded at a Halloween night party shooting at a large house in a wealthy San Francisco Bay Area community that had been rented out on Airbnb for what the renter said would be a family reunion, officials and the home’s owner said Friday.

But 100 people showed up at the house in the suburb of Orinda and residents and police were called to the scene late Thursday night, police chief David Cook told the [url=https://www.eastbaytimes.com/2019/11/01/orinda-sheriffs-deputies-investigate-multiple-shooting/]East Bay Times[/url].

<snip>

Michael Wang, who owns the 4,000-square-foot (372-square-meter) house, said he rented it out to a woman through Airbnb for what the woman said would be a family reunion for a dozen people, according to [url=https://www.sfchronicle.com/crime/article/4-people-killed-at-Orinda-house-party-reports-say-14767586.php]The San Francisco Chronicle[/url].

Wang said his wife reached out to the woman after neighbors called complaining about excessive noise. The woman said there were only 12 people at the party, but Wang said he could see more people via video from his Ring doorbell camera.

Airbnb is "urgently investigating" what happened, spokesman Ben Breit said in an email.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;529424][url=https://apnews.com/aa2c4f46bae74a6e97f12dc1b9855934]4 dead in Halloween party shooting in San Francisco Bay Area[/url][/QUOTE]Another shooting victim died Friday night.

[url=https://apnews.com/47f1797489eb4ab3928cd56aacfbfcec]Airbnb bans ‘party houses’ after California shooting kills 5[/url]

It seems Airbnb already has a policy of not allowing parties. However, it also seems their enforcement of the policy leaves something to be desired. The homeowner's judgement may also be in question. This wasn't the first time there were problems at that house:[quote]Orinda, with a population of about 20,000, requires short-term rental hosts to register with the city annually and pay an occupancy tax. The maximum occupancy is 13 people.

Orinda city documents show officials issued violations in March for exceeding the home’s maximum occupancy and illegal parking. City Manager Steve Salomon said the homeowner had resolved previous complaints lodged in February over occupancy and noise and in July over overflowing trash.[/quote]There will, however, be no further problems with Airbnb rentals there. They're not listing it any more.

In this [url=https://apnews.com/1cae18ea329e481e8e9607fd687b61c6]related story[/url], there's an interesting take on the flurry of public statements by Airbnb's higher-ups:[quote]Jessica Black is a lawyer and founder of Moms Against STRs, which pushes for local regulation of short-term rentals in Texas. Black said U.S. media reports have documented at least 30 shootings at Airbnb rentals since May.

In Black’s neighborhood, an Airbnb rental was taken over by a film crew that was shooting an unauthorized movie. She’s also concerned that a sex offender could stay in a rental home without neighbors being alerted.

Black said she’s glad Airbnb is addressing the issue, but she’s skeptical. She doesn’t think Airbnb has a good track record of enforcing its own policies.

“Is this about them trying to put lipstick on the pig for the IPO?” Black said.

Airbnb plans to have an initial public offering next year.[/quote]

Interesting perspective from a place one might not expect it:

[url=https://www.blackagendareport.com/mass-shootings-and-misguided-and-pernicious-push-gun-control]Mass Shootings and the Misguided and Pernicious Push for ‘Gun Control'[/url] | Black Agenda Report
[quote]Liberal calls for ‘gun control’ as a panacea conveniently circumvent the deep roots these atrocities have in our history and society. Furthermore, the reformist, institutional solutions advocated by these liberals, committed to the capitalist and imperialist systems which motivate mass shootings, will inevitably have racist and oppressive consequences. ‘Gun control’ entails giving the state a monopoly on weapons, whose foot soldiers (the police) are armed, racist, and militarized. Additionally, it invites the state to further regulate the people psychologically, inferably ushering in an Orwellian surveillance program in the form of ‘background checks’ based on the false belief that an individual’s mental health, and not a macro social illness, is to blame for mass shootings. Additionally, it doesn’t take a psychic medium to predict who will be the primary target of this desired crackdown on guns: black and brown Americans, the threatened populations who need the weapons most. These groups will surely be the most persecuted given general racial disparities in policing and imprisonment; ‘gun control’ will expand the racist carceral state which liberals played a critical role in building in the first place[/quote]

[QUOTE=ewmayer;530404][quote]... populations who need the weapons most.[/quote][/QUOTE]Assumes people actually "need" guns. If no one else has a gun then what does one "need" a gun for?

Guns are purely for intimidation and coercion. They don't "protect", they harm.

[QUOTE=ewmayer;530404]Interesting perspective from a place one might not expect it:

[url=https://www.blackagendareport.com/mass-shootings-and-misguided-and-pernicious-push-gun-control]Mass Shootings and the Misguided and Pernicious Push for ‘Gun Control'[/url] | Black Agenda Report

... capitalist and imperialist systems which motivate mass shootings...

... inferably ushering in...

... macro social illness...

... racist carceral state...[/quote]:missingteeth:

This is the most pretentious polemical crap I've read in quite some time.

Thank you for posting it. I needed a good laugh.

Using my great and unmatched influence with previous [strike]inmates[/strike] graduates of a little-known institution, many of whom are now among the ranks of the powerful, I have prevailed upon William "Jabba the Hutt" Barr to put forth some racist and oppressive gun control measures.

[url=https://www.justice.gov/opa/pr/attorney-general-william-p-barr-announces-launch-project-guardian-nationwide-strategic-plan]Attorney General William P. Barr Announces Launch of Project Guardian - A Nationwide Strategic Plan to Reduce Gun Violence[/url]

Enjoy!

Dr. Sardonicus, Chief of Client Placement
Frederick Charles Krueger Institution for the Criminally Insane
666 Elm Street NW
Washington, DC 20001

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;530456]This is the most pretentious polemical crap I've read in quite some time.

Thank you for posting it. I needed a good laugh.[/QUOTE]

So you object to the style - what about the substance? E.g. "racist carceral state" might have a tendency to roll off the tongue somewhat pompously, but that is not an argument about its being correct in fact.

Another school shooting. It was the shooter's birthday.
[url]https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-14/saugus-high-school-shooting-suspect[/url]

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;530622]Another school shooting. It was the shooter's birthday.
[url]https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-14/saugus-high-school-shooting-suspect[/url][/QUOTE]
The shooter was motivated by a capitalist and imperialist system. A macro social illness is to blame. Blah, blah, blah...

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;530622]Another school shooting. It was the shooter's birthday.
[URL]https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-14/saugus-high-school-shooting-suspect[/URL][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Aidan Soto, a 10th-grader at Saugus High School, said he had known the suspect for years through their school’s track team and the Boy Scouts, though they weren’t close. [U]The teen was the last person he’d imagine would commit such a horrific act, he said.[/U] [/QUOTE]
Decades ago, a Chicago newspaper curmudgeon, [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Royko"]Mike Royko[/URL], wrote about people who committed terrible acts. One of his observations was that in the aftermath of a killing, some neighbor or family member of the perpetrator would reliably pop up to say that the perp was [U]the [/U][U]last person he’d imagine would commit such a horrific act[/U]. It's kind of like "thoughts and prayers" after disastrous events: an automatic cliche. :picard:

[QUOTE=kladner;530639]Decades ago, a Chicago newspaper curmudgeon, [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Royko"]Mike Royko[/URL], wrote about people who committed terrible acts. One of his observations was that in the aftermath of a killing, some neighbor or family member of the perpetrator would reliably pop up to say that the perp was [U]the [/U][U]last person he’d imagine would commit such a horrific act[/U]. It's kind of like "thoughts and prayers" after disastrous events: an automatic cliche. :picard:[/QUOTE]
This may (or may not) provide some insights regarding his mindset:
[url]https://www.athletic.net/TrackAndField/Athlete.aspx?AID=12684758[/url]

1600 meters, 5:58.39, Mar 14 2019 -
[quote]I did terrible on this one and all the kids laughed at me :( [/quote]

:censored::censored::censored:[color=white].....[/color] :censored::censored::censored::censored: of Saugus High died Friday afternoon, apparently from a self-inflicted gunshot wound.

He has fulfilled the gun lobby's official motto(*) "When life hands you a lemon, pull out a gun and start shooting."

He deserves special commendation from the NRA because (1) he kept track of how much ammunition he had left, and (2) he exhibited methodical competence in handling a firearm. According to the [url=https://apnews.com/946d8d120c56423aa1ef3a660e3c4c58]latest AP story[/url] (my emphasis and censoring):[quote]But if the teen’s motivation was murky, his actions were planned and deliberate, Sheriff Alex Villanueva said.

:censored:’s mother dropped him off at Saugus High School in the Los Angeles suburb of Santa Clarita Thursday morning, which was his birthday. He walked alone to the center of a school open-air quad. Security camera video showed him dropping his backpack and pulling out a .45-caliber handgun. [b]He began firing, cleared the jammed weapon and kept shooting. :censored: counted his rounds, Villanueva said, saving the last bullet for himself.[/b][/quote](*) I'm not being entirely serious.

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;530744]because (1) he kept track of how much ammunition he had left[/QUOTE]Reminds me of a famous Private Eye cover, commenting on the SAS shooting of IRA members in Gibraltar. The speech bubbles read:

Why did you shoot him sixteen times?

I ran out of bullets.

[url=https://apnews.com/c6a744ea3705485698442ac1d54be85c]4 dead, 6 wounded in California football party shooting[/url][quote]FRESNO, Calif. (AP) — Four people were killed and six more wounded when "unknown suspects" sneaked into a backyard filled with people at a party in central California and fired into the crowd, police said.
<snip>
No one is in custody in connection with the shooting. Police said there was no immediate indication that the victims knew the shooter or shooters.[/quote]

Never mind "printed" guns...
 

[url=https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-21/santa-clarita-shooting-45-caliber-gun-saugus-high-attack-a-ghost-gun-sheriff-says]Santa Clarita shooting: Weapon used in Saugus High attack a ‘ghost gun,’ sheriff says[/url] (my emphasis)
[quote]<snip>
[b]"About a third of all firearms seized in Southern California now are unserialized, and that is expected to grow,"[/b] Ginger Colbrun, a spokeswoman for the Los Angeles region’s ATF office, told The Times in August.
<snip>
Such weapons often come in kits and can be acquired at gun shows or by mail. As one expert described it, the guns are as easy to assemble as Ikea furniture. A pistol consists of a frame, which includes the trigger housing that may need some tabs shaved off and several holes drilled before it can accept the barrel and action and then fire. The frame is known as an 80% receiver because it comes mostly, but not completely, manufactured. The finished gun has no serial number and therefore avoids background checks and waiting periods.[/quote]

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;531244][url=https://www.latimes.com/california/story/2019-11-21/santa-clarita-shooting-45-caliber-gun-saugus-high-attack-a-ghost-gun-sheriff-says]Santa Clarita shooting: Weapon used in Saugus High attack a ‘ghost gun,’ sheriff says[/url] (my emphasis)[/QUOTE]

[quote]As one expert described it, the guns are as easy to assemble as Ikea furniture.[/quote]

Well, that rules out the majority of the population. The statement was very clearly made by an expert.

[QUOTE=xilman;531252][quote]As one expert described it, the guns are as easy to assemble as Ikea furniture.[/quote]
Well, that rules out the majority of the population. The statement was very clearly made by an expert.[/QUOTE]Or, a gun expert who's never actually tried to assemble Ikea furniture
:grin:

What a mess the USA is in. They don't want to admit that guns are a problem. They just keep offering platitudes, those useless "thoughts and prayers" nonsense, as if it will make everything better.

[url]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/10/jersey-city-shooting-police-standoff[/url]

None so blind as those that refuse to see.

The description sounds like a cartel shootout south of the border.

[QUOTE=retina;532609]What a mess the USA is in. They don't want to admit that guns are a problem. They just keep offering platitudes, those useless "thoughts and prayers" nonsense, as if it will make everything better.

[url]https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2019/dec/10/jersey-city-shooting-police-standoff[/url]

None so blind as those that refuse to see.[/QUOTE][i]Il Duce[/i]:[quote]Just received a briefing on the horrific shootout that took place in Jersey City, NJ. Our [b]thoughts & prayers[/b] are w/ the victims & their families during this very difficult & tragic time. We will continue to monitor the situation as we assist local & state officials on the ground.[/quote]

New Jersey Gov. Phil Murphy:[quote]I have been briefed on the unfolding situation in Jersey City. Our [b]thoughts and prayers[/b] are with the men and women of the Jersey City Police Department, especially with the officers shot during this standoff, and with the residents and schoolchildren currently under lockdown. I have every confidence in our law enforcement professionals to ensure the safety of the community and resolve this situation. Today reminds us of their bravery and the sacrifices they, and their families, make for our communities.[/quote]

New Jersey Attorney General Gurbir S. Grewal:[quote]Please keep the officers of the Jersey City Police Department in your [b]thoughts and prayers[/b] as they work to resolve the situation," Grewal said in a statement. "We remain, as always, extraordinarily grateful for their service and their sacrifice.[/quote]

U.S. Sen. Cory Booker, D-N.J.:[quote]Closely monitoring the active shooter situation in Jersey City. For folks in the area, please continue to avoid Martin Luther King Drive for now.—it's not safe.

Grateful for the first responders who quickly arrived on the scene, and [b]praying[/b] for the officers shot in the standoff.[/quote]

New Jersey State Policemen's Benevolent Association:[quote]Officers have come under attack and we have several wounded. Our hearts are heavy and the violence is not over. [b]We need prayers.[/b][/quote]

The really sad part of calling for "thoughts and prayers" is that it is essentially the same as the attitude in the wake of a natural calamity, that there was nothing anyone could have done to stop it from happening. With natural calamities, of course, this is generally true, although there are things people can -- and will -- do to prevent death, injury, and destruction from foreseeable natural disasters ("acts of God") which cannot be prevented or controlled.

Mass shootings and major gun battles, however, are intrinsically man-made calamities. Viewing them in the same way as "acts of God" seems to me to be blasphemous. Treating them as such means trying to ameliorate their effects by turning every school, church, restaurant and store into an armed camp. Checkpoints at every street corner. Video monitoring everywhere, all the time.

It seems to me that the idolatrous worship of firearms in furtherance of promoting gun sales, under the protective coloration of the Sacred Second Amendment, has created a state of affairs inimical to at least two of the legitimate aims of government enumerated in the Preamble to the Constitution of the United States: [quote]promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity[/quote]

[QUOTE=kladner;532625]The description sounds like a cartel shootout south of the border.[/QUOTE]Yes indeedy. A whole [i]lot[/i] like.

[QUOTE=retina;532609]What a mess the USA is in. They don't want to admit that guns are a problem.[/QUOTE]
Many, many people and politicians in the USoA admit that guns are a problem.

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;532645]Many, many people and politicians in the USoA admit that guns are a problem.[/QUOTE]But then they all these final words ... [u]that they can't do anything about[/u]. Along the lines of Dr Sardonicus's previous post, people have been brainwashed into thinking that guns are some kind of necessity and that they need to invoke some imaginary being(s) to ask for help.

[url]https://projects.oregonlive.com/ucc-shooting/gun-deaths[/url]

[QUOTE=kladner;532625]The description sounds like a cartel shootout south of the border.[/QUOTE]

Are you referring to the word "gub" ?
Maybe it comes from a VERY early Woody Allen movie "Take The Money and Run".
He plays a hapless, incompetent loser who drifts into a life of crime.
In one scene, he goes into a bank to rob it and hands the teller a hand written note that says
"Act natural, I'm pointing a gub at you" but the teller starts arguing with about the word which
looks like "gub". Pretty soon, everyone is looking at the note with Allen and arguing with him and each other.

His punishment is prison for 10 years in solitary confinement with an insurance salesman.

[QUOTE=Xyzzy;533253][url]https://projects.oregonlive.com/ucc-shooting/gun-deaths[/url][/QUOTE]
Would like to see the first two graphics also expressed in terms of guns owned/registered in those counties.

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;533297][quote=Xyzzy;533253][url]https://projects.oregonlive.com/ucc-shooting/gun-deaths[/url][/quote]Would like to see the first two graphics also expressed in terms of guns owned/registered in those counties.[/QUOTE]If you click on the link [url=http://www.oregonlive.com/data/2015/10/where_do_americans_die_by_gunf.html#incart_big-photo/]Read more about these maps and check out more related graphics[/url] just above the first map, you will find two links that may be pertinent:

[url=http://projects.oregonlive.com/guns/dealers]licensed gun sellers per capita[/url] (maps)

and

[url=https://www.oregonlive.com/pacific-northwest-news/2015/10/the_link_between_gun_deaths_an.html]The link between gun deaths and gun ownership: What we know[/url][quote]It's surprising how little we know about the relationship between gun deaths and gun ownership, or the ability of states to curtail one by regulating the other.[/quote]