That sort of like UL being paid for by those producing the underwritten product, instead of the underwriters?

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;266857]For a spectacular example, see their absurd myth that the conservatives want to throw granny over the cliff, rather than admitting that there is a thoroughly documented pressing need for reform.[/QUOTE]In your desperation to mimic my words, you can't cite anything comparable to deciding that government should abandon using part of its fiscal powers or to mythologizing that the world's climatologists engaged in a conspiracy, so instead you weakly cite a mere temporary political slogan, rather than some persistent denial of objective reality.

[quote]Claiming that the GOP is acting out of ideological purity rather than reality (and by implication, without concern for the country) is just poison to the conversation (and untrue).[/quote]How is it untrue that, as imwithid posted, "Fiscal policy permits government the use of two primary tools: Taxes and Consumption (i.e. Spending)"?

How is it untrue that the GOP, by declaring that it will not agree to letting the Bush tax cuts expire, so that we simply restore tax rates to the level at which they where while this country had its longest post-WW2 economic boom, is acting out of ideological purity rather than reality?

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;266857]Claiming that the GOP is acting out of ideological purity rather than reality (and by implication, without concern for the country) is just poison to the conversation (and untrue).[/QUOTE]For over 30 years the constant refrain from the GOP has been, "Cut taxes on the wealthy. Never, ever, under any circumstances, allow tax rates to be restored to former levcels after a cut, regardless of the state of the economy."

That's not some reaction to reality. That's just a flat-out ideological position, without concern for the country except for the extremist desire to remold this country in the conservative worldview. That extremist view has no room for acknowledging that anyone elsewhere on the political spectrum has any right to hold a valid worldview that differs in any way from the conservative worldview.

Telling the truth about Republican strategy is not poisoning any conversation, though you may not want to see it told.

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;266857]Claiming that the GOP is acting out of ideological purity rather than reality (and by implication, without concern for the country) is just poison to the conversation (and untrue).[/QUOTE]Oh, there's also the no-compromise aspect of the position adopted by Republicans in regard to taxes. Refusal to compromise is a mark of ideological action, not realistic action. Realists compromise; Republicans used to do that routinely, before they decided that ideology trumped reality.

Big "Greek Rescue, v N.x" Eurozone financial summit today ... bottom line, seems there is going to be some kind of restructuring of Greek debt which will involve bondholders haircuts, and everyone is trying to find the nicest-sounding words possible to describe that, including such creative constructions as "partial" and even "temporary default". The ECB will of course have to find some way to either justify continuing to hold the resulting "temporarily partially-defaulted-on" 100-Bln-or-so-Eros-worth of Greek bonds it has overpaid for on its balance sheet, or perhaps it'll just offload them to the new, improved EFSF. Knock-on effects (e.g. due to CDS default triggers being hit) will be of interest. And throughout it all, Greece's finances will continue to deteriorate...

On this side of the puddle, In case anyone was wondering why bank shares are rallying hugely today, here ya go ... I predicted there was going to be a concerted effort to sweep this whole thing under the rug:

[url=http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/07/20/us-foreclosure-banks-immunity-idUSTRE76J7J820110720]States negotiating immunity for banks over foreclosures[/url]
[quote](Reuters) - State attorneys general are negotiating to give major banks wide immunity over irregularities in handling foreclosures, even as evidence has emerged that banks are continuing to file questionable documents.

A coalition of all 50 states' attorneys general has been negotiating settlements with five of the biggest U.S. banks that would include payment of up to $25 billion in penalties and commitments to follow new rules. In exchange, the banks would get immunity from civil lawsuits by the states, as well as similar guarantees by the Justice Department and Department of Housing and Urban Development, which have participated in the talks.

Reuters reported Monday that major banks and other loan servicers have continued to file questionable documents in foreclosure cases. These include false mortgage assignments, and promissory notes with suspect or missing "endorsements," which prove ownership. The Reuters report also showed continued "robo-signing," in which lenders' employees or outside contractors churn out reams of documents without fully understanding their content. The report turned up several cases involving individuals who were publicly identified as robo-signers months ago.

Reuters found that such activity has continued even after 14 major mortgage lenders signed settlements with federal bank regulators promising to halt such practices and give remediation to some homeowners who were harmed.[/quote]
[i]My Comment:[/i] Especially hilarious given the recent reporting (also by Reuters, as noted above) that fraudulent, abusive practices like robo-signing are ongoing and remain widespread. Guess that`s gonna be OK from here on out.

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;266857]Claiming that the GOP is acting out of ideological purity rather than reality (and by implication, without concern for the country) is just poison to the conversation (and untrue).[/QUOTE]There's yet another aspect to that accusation to point out:

The parenthetical phrase "(and by implication, without concern for the country)" slips in the idea that I was implicitly accusing the GOP of acting without concern for the country.

I never said (or even thought) that, so Zeta-Flux's insertion sets up a strawman about what I meant. (It's possible that his insertion was done without sufficient contemplation of how it looks to others.)

Instead, what I actually think is that [U]GOP conservatives acting in accord with the ideology to which I referred [I]really, truly, authentically do think[/I] that they're acting with extreme concern for, and in the best interest of, our country[/U]!

It's just that they are mistaken in that regard, and that mistake is dangerous.

The danger is based on the conservative worldview's lack of recognition of the validity of other worldviews held by those at other places in the political spectrum. Without recognizing and granting that validity to others, it becomes too easy for conservatives to justify a no-compromise one-sided stance on fiscal policy -- a sort of fiscal crusade -- that is not firmly enough tied to reality to be best for the combination of them [I]plus the rest of the country[/I].

The Norquist pledge was politically useful, but has now lost that usefulness.

- - -

I invite Zeta-Flux to apologize for his strawman-in-effect insertion and for his "poison" accusation.

[QUOTE=cheesehead;267650]I invite Zeta-Flux to apologize for his strawman-in-effect insertion and for his "poison" accusation.[/QUOTE]No thanks. I'll stand by my statement.

Every independent bipartisan study of the US fiscal situation has concluded that the solution must involve [I]both[/I] reducing entitlements and increasing taxes.

Republicans' rejection of the latter is not a reflection of reality; it is a manifestation of ideological rigidity for partisan purposes. Pointing out that truth is not introducing poison to the conversation; it is simply accurate reporting.

Pointing out other examples of Republicans' preference for ideology over reality is not introducing poison to the conversation; it is simply accurate reporting.

I want to see Republicans return to reality in order to properly function as natural counters to Democratic excesses.

As long as Republicans are seen to deny reality, Democrats will see that as an excuse to continue their excesses, and Republicans will win national elections only through repetition of electronic voting fraud (Ohio 2004) and voter suppression tactics (Florida 2000, Wisconsin [i]et al.[/i] 2012).

[QUOTE]As long as Republicans are seen to deny reality, Democrats will see that as an excuse to continue their excesses, and Republicans will win national elections only through repetition of electronic voting fraud (Ohio 2004) and voter suppression tactics (Florida 2000, Wisconsin et al. 2012). [/QUOTE]

This is a pretty wide divergence from topic Cheesehead. It is easy to point out that both Democrats and Republicans are at fault in the current debt impasse and that is on topic with this thread. That does not translate to proof that either is winning elections by dishonest means. I suggest you start a separate thread about dishonest politicians and rigged elections.

If you have 100 politicians buried up to their necks in concrete, what do you have?

Answer: A severe shortage of concrete.

DarJones

[QUOTE=Fusion_power;267685]It is easy to point out that both Democrats and Republicans are at fault in the current debt impasse and that is on topic with this thread.[/QUOTE]Just make sure to blame all of the Democrats' faults on the Republicans. Then it isn't their fault after all!

[QUOTE=Fusion_power;267685]It is easy to point out that both Democrats and Republicans are at fault in the current debt impasse and that is on topic with this thread.[/QUOTE]"The Appalling Hypocrisy Of The Republican Party Exposed In Three Simple Charts"

[URL]http://www.businessinsider.com/republican-budget-hypocrisy-2011-7[/URL]

[quote]That does not translate to proof that either is winning elections by dishonest means.[/quote]I never said it did. I have never, ever claimed that anything about fiscal policy proves anything about election fraud.

(You're right that the latter is OT.)

[quote]I suggest you start a separate thread about dishonest politicians and rigged elections.[/quote]Too late; already started a while ago, with a recent update -> "Electronic voting fraud vs. the old-fashioned type" [URL]http://mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=267322&postcount=19[/URL]

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[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;267698]Just make sure to blame all of the Democrats' faults on the Republicans. Then it isn't their fault after all![/QUOTE]"The Appalling Hypocrisy Of The Republican Party Exposed In Three Simple Charts"

[URL]http://www.businessinsider.com/republican-budget-hypocrisy-2011-7[/URL]

[quote]. . .

As [URL="http://www.businessinsider.com/government-spending-2011-7"]we've reported[/URL], and as the three charts below show, the Republicans are every bit as responsible for the country's budget and debt mess as the Democrats (if not more so).

. . .[/quote]When Republicans can admit that, we can make progress.

[QUOTE=cheesehead;267661]I want to see Republicans return to reality in order to properly function as natural counters to Democratic excesses.

As long as Republicans are seen to deny reality, Democrats will see that as an excuse to continue their excesses[/QUOTE]Note that I'm implying (really, this time) that Republicans are correctable; Democrats may not be, without honest Republican help.