[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;239607]I have posted FACTS[/QUOTE]

Your Vanity Fair author has certainly picked the cherries quite well. If I felt like doing similarly I could easily present twice as many facts supporting the opposite side.

Oddly, I don't.

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;239607]I lived in Houston
for several years[/QUOTE]

And we all know the scientific value of anecdotes.

[QUOTE=CRGreathouse;239606]I think you understate the polarization of America in the past! Historically this amount of polarization is typical or even low. Look at Johnson's presidency,

[/QUOTE]

I presume you mean Lyndon, not Andrew? A time not long ago when
southern states were still applying Jim Crow laws, openly lynching blacks,
and refusing to obey court orders to desegregate??? Generally treating
black people as less than human???

[QUOTE]
for example, or Jackson's!
[/QUOTE]

Jackson. The southern "gentleman" who told the Supreme Court to
screw itself when he said that he would not honor treaties signed
with Native Americans despite their ruling that by law the government was
required to honor them ????


[QUOTE]
I highly recommend you find campaign material from the early US and see how scandalous and factitious politics was then and compare to how it is now.[/QUOTE]

The fact that it was worse (the South practiced SLAVERY) then does not
disprove in any way my fact-supported assertions about the differences
between red and blue states NOW.

[QUOTE=CRGreathouse;239609]Your Vanity Fair author has certainly picked the cherries quite well.

[/QUOTE]

You say "cherry picking". Please indicate which facts are wrong.

I call the facts "typical", rather than "cherry picking"

[QUOTE]
And we all know the scientific value of anecdotes.[/QUOTE]

I said something funny?? If you can present facts that are contrary
to what I said, then please do so.

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;239607]I have posted FACTS and cited examples of the kinds of religious extremism
that is prevalent in red states. My portrayal of the differences between
the read & blue states is very accurate and backed by facts. All you have done is [b]gainsay[/b].[/quote]I know this wasn't addressed to me, but let me attempt to address your list.

[QUOTE]In blue states, you don't find (just to cite some examples):

Churches such as the Kansas Baptist Church that goes to military
funerals and spews hatred toward gays.[/QUOTE]Everyone, even in the "red states" as you call them, thinks these people are wackos. And you are wrong that such organizations exist only in red states.

[QUOTE]The Ku Klux Klan (!!!!!!!!)[/QUOTE]I'll grant you that this group is centered in the southern states. But again, everyone (even in the red states) thinks these people are wackos.

[quote]Mormon polygamists who force young girls to marry against their will
and openly flaunt laws against polygamy.[/quote]Slight quibble. These polygamist groups are not Mormons. They exist in many states, including blue ones. Everyone, *especially* those in red states, thinks these people are wackos. Remember how Texas went a little too proactive and basically kidnapped all those children?

[QUOTE]Branch Davidian type cults.[/QUOTE]They exist in blue states too.

[QUOTE]Jim Jones type cults who induce their members to commit suicide by
cyanide.[/QUOTE]They exist in blue states too.

[QUOTE]White extremist military hate groups.[/QUOTE]They exist in less populated states, which tend to be red states, like Idaho. Everyone thinks they are wackos too. I should know. I grew up in Idaho. Everyone there thinks they are wackos. They just go to Idaho to hide in the mountains.

[QUOTE]States who pass laws requiring that nonsensical alternatives to evolution (based purely on their religious dogma) be taught in schools.[/QUOTE]I'll actually grant you this one. That's dumb.

[QUOTE]States that pass laws promoting prayer in schools. High school football teams who have teacher led Christian prayers before practice and games.[/QUOTE]This is something that is not "relatively intolerant, uneducated, or hypocritical". But I think we will disagree on that. (It sometimes gets out of hand, link in your case when they forced you to say prayers. But it gets out of hand the other way around too, when people are *prevented* from praying on their own.)

[QUOTE]States who fly the confederate flag as part of their government.[/QUOTE]You are right. That is pretty dumb. *BUT* to put it in context (of today's politics) it usually happens only in small rural towns. Having lived in the south, like you, I know some of the younger generation flies the flag without really knowing what it represents.

[QUOTE]Religious leaders who get caught embezzling (J. Baker), stealing, committing adultery, calling for heads of other countries to be murdered. Now I don't expect religious leaders to be saints. But these same people claim to have the moral high ground. [/QUOTE]Not unique to red states. This happens in blue states just as often, with usually just as much hypocrisy.

[QUOTE]Do you want more??? Watch the movie "Religulous". Do you want more?[/QUOTE]Sadly, that movie is highly inaccurate. It is about as accurate as that movie...what was it...[i]Expelled[/i].

[quote]And I had firsthand experience of what the South is like. I lived in Houston for several years where my teachers complained that I was a discipline problem in class because I kept interrupting with questions. One of them actually said "I don't know where y'all are from, but down here students
shut up and do as they are told. We don't want smartass Yankee Jews
interrupting our classes with questions". When I first moved to Houston,
in my first day of class the first thing they did was recite the Lord's Prayer.
I did not know it and had no idea what it was. When I asked my parents
about it they protested to the school that I was Jewish and that I was
not required to go along with this prayer service. My parents were told that
I had no choice but to do as everyone else was doing. They told me not
to participate. I was constantly harassed by other students for my non-
particiption. The school admins did nothing. [/quote]I'm sorry for your persecution. Sadly, similar things happen the other way around too. Atheistic demagogues persecute sincere believers. A large majority, in both the red and blue states, think these things are unfortunate.

[quote]This typifies the red states.[/quote]You are overgeneralizing, and ignoring the similar problems in the blue states.

[quote]There is a religious extremism that pervades these states and the people who live there think it is perfectly OK to force their religion on everyone else.[/quote]No there isn't, and no they don't.

[quote]I am not intolerant; I am [b]PUSHING BACK[/b] by presenting real facts.[/QUOTE]One-sided facts.

Cheers,
Zeta-Flux

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;239599]Read the reply from Zeta-flux (someone who has shown himself to be a
religious nutcase in many prior posts) ...[/QUOTE]At least I'm not relatively intolerant or uneducated. :-p

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;239616]The fact that it was worse (the South practiced SLAVERY) then does not
disprove in any way my fact-supported assertions about the differences
between red and blue states NOW.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't responding to you.

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;239616]I presume you mean Lyndon, not Andrew?[/QUOTE]

No.

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;239617]You say "cherry picking". Please indicate which facts are wrong.[/QUOTE]

Are we miscommunicating? I'm talking about
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cherry_picking_(fallacy[/url])
which not only does not require any facts to be wrong but presupposes them to be correct. (I have not checked your facts but similarly assume them to be correct or largely correct.)

You have the claim; the burden of proof is on you to demonstrate that the facts are both true and representative. (Of course you don't actually need to do either, but you would need to do both were you to establish your claim.)

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;239618]Everyone, even in the "red states" as you call them, thinks these people are wackos.[/QUOTE]Obviously not everyone thinks so ! Perhaps you should have said "A large majority thinks..." or "Most people think ..." ?
[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;239618](Religious leaders who get caught embezzling, stealing, committing adultery, calling for heads of other countries to be murdered...) Not unique to red states. This happens in blue states just as often, with usually just as much hypocrisy.[/QUOTE]The difference is that religious extremists preach about fidelity, abstinence, against homosexuality... They advocate severe punishment of those who transgress. And then they are caught at it.

That said, I think you are partially right, the distinction between red and blue states is not clearly cut. The colour of a state only represents which party obtained a majority, it does not take into account those who voted for the opposition, nor does it take into account those who did not or could not vote (remember the problems with voter registration in Florida ?) Also just changing an election majority would not instantly diminish poverty, divorce and so on

On the other hand R.D. Silverman is right as well, the points he makes do correspond with the political mindset of those leading the different states and are backed up by the statistical data he presented.

Jacob

[QUOTE=Calvin Culus;239585]

[/QUOTE]So, after talking about deleting your account you decide to continue talking anyway. If you want to be removed, you should ask and then shut your mouth.

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;239631]So, after talking about deleting your account you decide to continue talking anyway. If you want to be removed, you should ask and then shut your mouth.[/QUOTE]
To be fair, he only spoke when I asked him a question. He courteously gave me an answer which was just as polite as the way I spoke to him.:smile:

Dr. Silverman's story of growing up as a Jew in Houston and being rejected by everyone else because of his different religion, strikes a chord with me. I grew up in Britain and felt rejected there from a very early age because I was gay. The rejection came largely through a strong Christian tradition which was much more prevalent then (the 1970's) than it is in Britain now. I could stand it no longer in my twenties and moved to The Netherlands where the Christian religion, while almost as ubiquitous as in Britain, was not dominant to the extent that people imposed their ideas of morality on everyone else. I renounced my British nationality as soon as was possible and these days I have almost nothing to do with the country where I was born.

I say this to illustrate that the phenomenon which we see in the "red states" of the US today has (or at least had) parallels elsewhere too. But the hold that the worst fringes of religion enjoy can weaken and become irrelevant as seems to be happening now in Britain and also elsewhere in Europe. The Netherlands was a forerunner in this process, but other countries have since caught up. Is the USA showing any signs of going that way too?

[QUOTE=Zeta-Flux;239618]

One-sided facts.

Cheers,
Zeta-Flux[/QUOTE]


part of debate.