Feindlich, Widerlich, Abstoßend, Undiplomatisch?
 

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by R.D. Silverman
WHAT conduct? My discussion has been entirely about the mathematics
and meaning of the original question.

Well to someone who is not accustomed to who you are and has not been on the forums for too long (such as the OP), he would be offended (probably). [/QUOTE]

Would anyone like to weigh in here? Exactly what might I have said that could even
be remotely construed as offensive?

The only thing I can see is that some people might take offense simply at being
[b]corrected[/b].

The "discussion" Robert is referring to is from here: [url]http://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=12241[/url]

The above thread is temporarily closed for today.

I personally think that throughout the course of the thread you kept talking about the OP's wording, over and over and over again. To someone who is new to these forums (like the unregistered OP), being corrected about the same thing repeatedly (and over-embellishing this flaw) after only one post may be taken as offensive.

Instead, if you said that the OP's wording was inaccurate (which it was) only once, would have sufficed.
Also, you seemed a bit impatient because you kept waiting for the OP to respond....that's also partly offensive.

Either way, since I am on your ignore list, you probably won't read this post anyways.

By the way, why the heck is this thread in the Homework Help forum? It should be in the Soap Box (or Lounge); it just shouldn't be here.

Bob, at this point, I have to assume that either you enjoy punishing yourself with poorly phrased mathematical sploogings from people you consider beneath you, or you simply do not understand the way people different than you operate.

Unless I am mistaken, no one is asking you to be here, no one is forcing you to read the homework help forum, and you continue to do this of your own volition. You are brusque, impatient, and frankly, not a good teacher. I have never seen you take any joy in another's acquisition of knowledge, yet you seem to revel in berating anyone who wastes your time. I am sure you are a fine collaborator, and a font of knowledge, but part of being a teacher is understanding your student.

You are easily irritated, you veer off into tirades about the way people should learn (which invariably is go read a book and figure out why an algorithm works before you try to code anything*) and you refuse to listen to anything that doesn't come packed in mathematical precision.

If this were grad school, I would have no qualms with your behavior, but it is a public forum. So what if people come on here and try to prove something without basic high school knowledge? You like to compare mathematics to brain surgery, but your analogy is useless and self-important because no one is going to die at the hands of an amateur mathematician. The worst impact they have on the world is annoyance. There will ALWAYS be someone on here who annoys you with the same kind of behavior, and you berating them WILL. NOT. CHANGE. IT. Just because your teachers doing this worked for you doesn't mean that it works for everyone, especially amateurs/cranks who aren't harming anyone.



*which, by the way, annoys me to no end that you believe there is no value in running someone else's code. Yes, one should have an understanding of that algorithm, but if someone is just beginning, running through examples helps TREMENDOUSLY.

[QUOTE=Orgasmic Troll;184072]Bob, at this point, I have to assume that either you enjoy punishing yourself with poorly phrased mathematical sploogings from people you consider beneath you, or you simply do not understand the way people different than you operate.

[/QUOTE]

At this point, I have to assume that you can't read. I asked how
anything I wrote in the prior thread might be offensive. Instead of
answering, you went off on a rant. (deleted below).

[QUOTE]
but part of being a teacher is understanding your student.
[/QUOTE]

There is no way of "knowing your student' when an anonymous
person poses a question.




[QUOTE]

and you refuse to listen to anything that doesn't come packed in mathematical precision.
[/QUOTE]

Since the subject is mathematics, to do ANYTHING LESS leads to what
Andrei Toom (in a very famous essay) referred to as "pseudo-education".

See

[url]http://www.inform.umd.edu/EdRes/Colleges/ARHU/Depts/CompLit/cmltgrad[/url]

A Russian Teacher In America
by Andrei Toom


I refuse to participate in 'pseudo education', nor is there any reason why I
should so participate. Look at the disaster it leads to, as discussed in
Toom's paper.

[QUOTE]
If this were grad school, I would have no qualms with your behavior, but it is a public forum. So what if people come on here and try to prove something without basic high school knowledge? You like to compare mathematics to brain surgery, but your analogy is useless and self-important because no one is going to die at the hands of an amateur mathematician.
[/QUOTE]

Irrelevant. You miss the analogy. It isn't brain surgery per se, but rather to show the futility and pointlessness of trying to accomplish anything in any
technical subject without a basic background in the fundamentals.

With regard to your public forum reference: Are you also saying that public
forums should not impose any academic discipline? I disagree. To do
otherwise leads to pseudo-education.


[QUOTE]

The worst impact they have on the world is annoyance. There will ALWAYS be someone on here who annoys you with the same kind of behavior, and you berating them WILL. NOT. CHANGE. IT.
[/QUOTE]

Once again... Who did I berate? Fouran said people could be offended
by my remarks. These remarks only addressed the mathematics and
meaning of the original question.


[QUOTE]
Just because your teachers doing this worked for you doesn't mean that it works for everyone, especially amateurs/cranks who aren't harming anyone.
[/QUOTE]

But they DO harm people. Look at the harm caused by some of the cranks
in sci.math. Cranks have tried to get professors FIRED, because the
professors told them they were wrong. And I have had to deal with the
aftermath of misinformation that someone picked up (and believes) that originally came from a crank.

The time to stamp out crankish behavior is at the very beginning.


[QUOTE]
*which, by the way, annoys me to no end that you believe there is no value in running someone else's code. Yes, one should have an understanding of that algorithm, but if someone is just beginning, running through examples helps TREMENDOUSLY.[/QUOTE]

Explain what understanding comes from blindly running black box
code written by others. It might be fun, but it conveys no
understanding. You say it helps tremendously. Helps [b]what[/b]???

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;184076]At this point, I have to assume that you can't read. [/QUOTE]
See, it's these kinds of things that are [B]offensive[/B]. You asked in the thread I linked in post #2 why people may call you an asshole, and your uncalled-for response to Orgasmic Troll is a reason for that.

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;184076]And I have had to deal with the
aftermath of misinformation that someone picked up (and believes) that originally came from a crank.
[/QUOTE]
No one asks you to. Most mathematicians (non-amateurs) just ignore cranks altogether. Instead, they concentrate on their work. Why don't you do the same?
[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;184076]
The time to stamp out crankish behavior is at the very beginning.
[/QUOTE]
In other words, you are trying to [B]change[/B] people. Good luck with that futile, useless task.

[QUOTE=flouran;184077]See, it's these kinds of things that are [B]offensive[/B]. You asked in the thread I linked in post #2 why people may call you an asshole, and your uncalled-for response to Orgasmic Troll is a reason for that.[/QUOTE]

This time it was *intended* to be offensive, in response to something
Orgasmic Troll said that I found offensive.

You still haven't shown what, in the original thread, was offensive.

[QUOTE=flouran;184078]

In other words, you are trying to [B]change[/B] people. Good luck with that futile, useless task.[/QUOTE]


I have zero expectation of changing them. Neverthless, some good still
comes from what I write. Sometimes the cranks go away and don't come
back. And sometimes, unfortunately, they don't. :smile: And sometimes,
in very rare instances, they do change their behavior. Raman is one
such.

[quote=flouran;184078]Most mathematicians (non-amateurs) just ignore cranks altogether. Instead, they concentrate on their work. Why don't you do the same?[/quote]
As a crank myself I have personally benefited from Dr Silverman's help here on this forum. I felt slightly silly afterwards because he roundly corrected me, but I was delighted to have my questions (they were about factorising methods) directly answered for free by a noted expert. Please don't ask him to stop helping others.

To answer Dr. Silverman's question from my own reading: I saw nothing offensive posted by him in the thread referred to.

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;184083]
Sometimes the cranks go away and don't come
back. And sometimes, unfortunately, they don't. :smile:
[/QUOTE]
On a forum like mersenneforum, I don't think that a crank is harmful. But on eprint sites and places which are intended [B]only for professional mathematicians to collaborate their results[/B], then cranks should be banned. Which is why there is an endorsement system on the arXiv...(though some cranks still get through unfortunately)

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;184076]Explain what understanding comes from blindly running black box
code written by others. It might be fun, but it conveys no
understanding. You say it helps tremendously. Helps [b]what[/b]???[/QUOTE]

Then why do you use the CWI postprocessing code for your NFS jobs????????????

[QUOTE=10metreh;184088]Then why do you use the CWI postprocessing code for your NFS jobs????????????[/QUOTE]

I expect Bob has a pretty good idea of what the CWI code does (and has probably written similar himself at some point), but the CWI code is state of the art and he prefers to devote his limted coding time elsewhere. Don't confuse "choosing to not reinvent the wheel" with "lacking an understanding of how the wheel works".

"Blindly" is better illustrated by e.g. someone who runs Prime95 24/7 and thinks it "factors" the number under test in order to see if it's a Mersenne prime, or that running the LL test of 2[sup]p[/sup]-1 to n% of completion (0 < n < 100) actually yields information about the likelihood of 2[sup]p[/sup]-1 being prime.

(As to Bob's alleged rudeness, I hereby revoke my 5th commandment right against self-discrimination and stuff, and respectfully decline to comment .)

invoke!

[QUOTE=garo;184095]invoke![/QUOTE]

I've been informed by the kind folks at Grammar HQ about "numerous irregularities in [my] phrasing" of the 5th-amendment invocation, of which (junior grammarian 1st class) garo's is but one. ;)

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;184082]
You still haven't shown what, in the original thread, was offensive.[/QUOTE]

In post #2, I pointed out some ways in which the OP *may* have taken your comments and what you said as offensive. Admittedly, you were nicer in that thread than what I have experienced from you.

You mentioned in post #1 that the only thing the OP might find offensive was that he/she was corrected. That may well be correct. I am certainly not a professional mathematician, but at best I am an amateur (I am in the midst of publishing my first paper, so that's not much), and I exchange correspondence with professional mathematicians on a regular basis. Now, if any of them ever told me that I don't understand a subject well-enough or I am incorrect somewhere, I would most definitely [B]not[/B] take offense and work on this flaw in a heartbeat (because I know they are professionals and I'm not). However, in my opinion, I would most likely take offense (or at least have my ego hurt) if a non-professional blatantly and rather brusquely and impatiently pointed out my flaws.
Robert, do you remember the first time I posted on this forum, on the thread "Solve for the Mod Function"? I got extremely angry because you told me to go learn number theory. At the time, I didn't know you were a non-amateur (hell, six months ago I learned who Carl Pomerance was!). And, I am afraid, that the OP is not well-versed in the members of the mathematical community (judging from the weakness of his question). Thus, he would most likely take offense from your (helpful) comments that his wording was imprecise, etc. because he does not [B]know who you are[/B].

Regardless, my reference to your alleged rudeness was not necessarily drawn from the thread I linked to in post #2, but from the way I had noticed (in my short time here) your conduct with other forum-goers here in other threads over time. I can say that almost every professor I have conversed with (both east and west coast) has always treated me with respect, and even if I didn't understand the subject too well, they would very kindly tell me to read up on the subject. You did that in this thread, which I commend you on. But in other threads, I can't help but notice that you can be rude, extremely rude (although we all can be), but this is not an isolated incident. Perhaps you don't consider some of the things you say as rude, but others do. If you don't want people to not call you an asshole, then act in the same way you acted on this thread.

Look, I'm not trying to change you; if I was, then that would be a stupid action on my part. All I am doing is pointing out some flaws (or what I personally believe are flaws) in your character, which you frequently do to other forum-goers (pointing our mistakes in other people can either be constructive or destructive).
Personally, to be fair, I have temper problems as well. I've been rude to Uncwilly, xilman, 10metreh, davieddy, Mini-Geek, ewmayer, CRGreathouse, cheesehead, jasong, and other people as well. But, at least what I have been [B]trying[/B] to do is to improve who I am as a person, and ultimately improve my relations with other people.

I hope you don't take this post as a personal attack, but only as a helpful suggestion :smile:

[QUOTE=flouran;184103]If you don't want people to not call you an asshole, then act in the same way you acted on this thread.[/QUOTE]

That is a rather significant double negative.

[QUOTE=Brian-E;184084]...I have personally benefited from Dr Silverman's help here on this forum. I felt slightly silly afterwards because he roundly corrected me, but I was delighted to have my questions ... directly answered for free by a noted expert.[/QUOTE]

This is true for me too.

[QUOTE=flouran;184103]Look, I'm not trying to change you; if I was, then that would be a stupid action on my part. All I am doing is pointing out some flaws (or what I personally believe are flaws) in your character,:[/QUOTE]

Translation: The Big Bad professor insists on maintaining rigorous
academic standards. He is mean. I feel insulted. Boo Hoo, Boo Hoo.

[QUOTE=ewmayer;184092]I expect Bob has a pretty good idea of what the CWI code does (and has probably written similar himself at some point), but the CWI code is state of the art and he prefers to devote his limted coding time elsewhere. Don't confuse "choosing to not reinvent the wheel" with "lacking an understanding of how the wheel works".
[/QUOTE]

Indeed. At one time I had my own implementation for all of the pieces
of NFS; including the LA and final square root. I did not have the time
to optimize them. I simply use the CWI tools because they have been
extensively optimized.

I'd like to do an implementation of Block-Wiedemann. My real work
(and being a single parent) leaves me no time for it.

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;184205]Translation: The Big Bad professor insists on maintaining rigorous
academic standards. He is mean. I feel insulted. Boo Hoo, Boo Hoo.[/QUOTE]

As I recall, you don't have the proper credentials to be a professor. Don't get me wrong, you are a professional, but certainly not a professor.

Besides, your rudeness is not because of your maintenance of academic standards; there have been instances where you have made uncalled-for remarks (that had little to do with academics). Maintaining academic standards does [B]not[/B] necessarily imply that you have to be rude, it means you have to be strict. Strictness and rudeness [B]are not the same[/B].

[QUOTE=flouran;184216]As I recall, you don't have the proper credentials to be a professor. Don't get me wrong, you are a professional, but certainly not a professor.[/QUOTE][COLOR="Red"][B][SIZE="4"]DUCK![/SIZE][/B][/COLOR]
:flamewar:

[quote=R.D. Silverman;184205]Translation: The Big Bad professor insists on maintaining rigorous academic standards.[...][/quote]

I wanna play, too!

Rigorous academic standards are for autistic cowards, who don't have the balls to make outrageous hunches public. Take that, Big Bad Professor!

A nice distinction
 

May I suggest that contributors to this thread consider the different nuances that the words "offensive" and "undiplomatic" may have?

After such consideration, perhaps a more appropriate choice of adjective may be forthcoming in future discussions.

Paul

[quote=xilman;184367]May I suggest that contributors to this thread consider the different nuances that the words "offensive" and "undiplomatic" may have?

After such consideration, perhaps a more appropriate choice of adjective may be forthcoming in future discussions.[/quote]Hey! Maybe we can put together a list of such terms ("offensive") with suggested alternatives ("undiplomatic") that may be more accurate or polite.

Thesaurus.com (which redirects to [URL="http://thesaurus.reference.com/"]thesaurus.reference.com[/URL]) claims to be the "Largest free online thesaurus including antonyms." (However, a search there on neither "offensive" nor "undiplomatic" gives the other as a synonym.)

[QUOTE=cheesehead;184369]Hey! Maybe we can put together a list of such terms ("offensive") with suggested alternatives ("undiplomatic") that may be more accurate or polite.

Thesaurus.com (which redirects to [URL="http://thesaurus.reference.com/"]thesaurus.reference.com[/URL]) claims to be the "Largest free online thesaurus including antonyms." (However, a search there on neither "offensive" nor "undiplomatic" gives the other as a synonym.)[/QUOTE]For a very good reason: they are not synonyms.

Again, I invite consideration of the ways in which they are not synonyms .


Paul

People asking for information require help which is accurate and which meets their needs. I would call this style of helping "direct", in the sense of "to the point", containing sound advice, unambiguous, relevant.

Sometimes this directness can be construed as blunt and impolite even when it is purely intended to be helpful. This is partly culture dependent and is also not helped by the way that communication on the internet occurs without the very subtle non-verbal communication which we experience when we talk to someone face-to-face. In this case people with diplomatic skills can add to the expert's direct help by smoothing the message over.

Both those helping in the direct way and those who exercise diplomacy are adding to the teaching and learning process. Each group should acknowledge the value of the other group's contribution and should try to work together. That is one good reason why it is right to encourage a variety of responses from different people when someone asks for help.

Offensiveness is - by definition, I think - always inappropriate. But offensiveness can be hard to distinguish from directness, especially between two people from different cultures and backgrounds. People who give help in the direct manner should be aware of this potential and - if in doubt - try to make it clear that they do not wish to be offensive at the same time as giving their help.

Here is what I think. Bob is either:

1) Direct, as [URL="http://mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=184438&postcount=26"]Brian-E's previous post[/URL] explains

2) Has Asperger's Syndrome

3) Is actually a totally different person when he is not dealing with math-related problems

4) All of the above (or some combination of the latter)

5) None of the above

[QUOTE=flouran;186882]Here is what I think. Bob is either:

1) Direct, as [URL="http://mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=184438&postcount=26"]Brian-E's previous post[/URL] explains

2) Has Asperger's Syndrome

3) Is actually a totally different person when he is not dealing with math-related problems

4) All of the above (or some combination of the latter)

5) None of the above[/QUOTE]

I think that you're correct, since those five cases cover all eight possibilities (with Hamming weight 1/1/1/2–3/0, respectively).

[quote]
Bob, at this point, I have to assume that either you enjoy punishing yourself with poorly phrased mathematical sploogings from people you consider beneath you, or you simply do not understand the way people different than you operate.

Unless I am mistaken, no one is asking you to be here, no one is forcing you to read the homework help forum, and you continue to do this of your own volition. You are brusque, impatient, and frankly, not a good teacher. I have never seen you take any joy in another's acquisition of knowledge, yet you seem to revel in berating anyone who wastes your time. I am sure you are a fine collaborator, and a font of knowledge, but part of being a teacher is understanding your student.

You are easily irritated, you veer off into tirades about the way people should learn (which invariably is go read a book and figure out why an algorithm works before you try to code anything*) and you refuse to listen to anything that doesn't come packed in mathematical precision.

If this were grad school, I would have no qualms with your behavior, but it is a public forum. So what if people come on here and try to prove something without basic high school knowledge? You like to compare mathematics to brain surgery, but your analogy is useless and self-important because no one is going to die at the hands of an amateur mathematician. The worst impact they have on the world is annoyance. There will ALWAYS be someone on here who annoys you with the same kind of behavior, and you berating them WILL. NOT. CHANGE. IT. Just because your teachers doing this worked for you doesn't mean that it works for everyone, especially amateurs/cranks who aren't harming anyone.



*which, by the way, annoys me to no end that you believe there is no value in running someone else's code. Yes, one should have an understanding of that algorithm, but if someone is just beginning, running through examples helps TREMENDOUSLY.[/quote]Agreed. Looks like a similar case is happening, this time on a subject that's not really math-related:

[URL]http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?p=209963#post209963[/URL]

Whether my views are right or wrong is your opinion, but Silverman's attitude has been acting up again. As the saying goes, you can't teach old dog Silverman new tricks...

[quote=Historian;209964]Agreed. Looks like a similar case is happening, this time on a subject that's not really math-related:

[URL]http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?p=209963#post209963[/URL]

Whether my views are right or wrong is your opinion, but Silverman's attitude has been acting up again. As the saying goes, you can't teach old dog Silverman new tricks...[/quote](* sigh *)

I have a request for you and anyone else who's been in this forum less than a year. This request is based on my experience here, plus some background:

Please temporarily refrain from commenting on the non-mathematical content of Silverman's posts until after you've gone back to read a hundred or so of his past postings from years ago, to get a better feel for where he's coming from.

He's not going to be impressed by your emotional blastings. Neither will the rest of us.

When you do comment on the non-mathematical content of Silverman's posts, please try doing so from an analytical, nonsatirical perspective, so that you avoid perpetuating a useless angry emotional tone. This may be difficult for you, and emotionally unsatisfying at first. Please just try it a few times, and try analyzing the results. You may find this approach more satisfying in the long run.

[quote=Historian;209964]
Whether my views are right or wrong is your opinion, but Silverman's attitude has been acting up again. As the saying goes, you can't teach old dog Silverman new tricks...[/quote]That saying emphatically does not apply. Through these forums I have been privileged to have access thoughts and opinions of some well-published mathematicians. Dr. Silverman stands near the top of those I value most. He and others can be a bit irascibly pointed in remarks at times; this I value too. I like that mathematics is breathed alive by people by with feelings and dimensions that give this field a vibrancy and meaning beyond what I could reach by scraping over dry esoteric formulations.

Most assuredly, when a new mathematical result is popularized, one of the first things I check on these forums is what Dr. Silverman and a few others here say about it. [I]They learn new tricks all the time[/I]. Of course most of what is new is really old or merely a new perspective but occasionally is surprisingly unexpected. Or so I think -- in my opinion... because it is easy to have an opinion. Much too easy sometimes. Easy to chime in and feel what one is saying is new or precious; and in the give and take of opinions sometimes something stings. I had a chile verde omelet for breakfast today. The first bite was a bit too spicy but it gradually became more palatable... and then delicious. Yum!