The Red Cross Torture Report
 

I'm surprised there hasn't been any comment on the forum about this. Has this story been picked up by the US media at all? Or is it taken as granted that the US government committed torture in the past eight years?

[url]http://www.nybooks.com/articles/22614[/url]

The important question now is what should be done about it. It is very disheartening that the new administration is showing no inclnation to go after the torturers and punish them like they should be in a civilized country.

[QUOTE=garo;168537]I'm surprised there hasn't been any comment on the forum about this. Has this story been picked up by the US media at all? Or is it taken as granted that the US government committed torture in the past eight years? [/quote]
I'd say most Americans accept that plenty o'torture occurred under the W. Bush administration.

[quote]The important question now is what should be done about it. It is very disheartening that the new administration is showing no inclination to go after the torturers and punish them like they should be in a civilized country.[/QUOTE]
I suggest we first waterboard them and get them to confess ... seriously, there appear to be unwritten rules in Washington about to what extent a new administration can/should go after the previous one for its alleged misdeeds. An obvious practical reason is that outgoing admins typically still have plenty of supporters on Capitol Hill, and it's not the best idea to immediately come in and piss off a bunch of folks whose support you might need at some point. Hell, even Nixon got a "let's move on" pardon from Ford. Unless the [alleged] crimes are truly heinous, the "let history judge them" seems to apply to the top brass, although the 2nd tier and underlings (e.g. Haldeman, Ehrlichmann et al in the case of Nixon) often end up taking the fall.

Anyway, I was far too busy guffawing about "Uncle Silvio" Berlusconi's latest [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/apr/08/italy-earthquake-berlusconi]foot-in-mouth[/url] attack to worry about real news today. ;)

[quote=garo;168537]I'm surprised there hasn't been any comment on the forum about this.[/quote]Without looking it up, I'd say I'm sure there has been comment on torture in past threads on Iraq and/or the presidential campaign.

[quote]Has this story been picked up by the US media at all?[/quote]You mean the story of torture? That has been covered at length numerous times during the past few years in US media. If you had been a regular watcher/reader of US media, you could not have avoided articles/broadcasts about the allegations & facts of torture performed on "terrorist"/"noncombatant" prisoners, both at Guantanamo and in other countries where US military or CIA was in charge of such prisoners.

It is possible that those of we forum participants who live in the US may have figured that the torture news has been pretty widely and promptly distributed worldwide and thus felt no particular need to inform those of you elsewhere. Indeed, I've frequently gotten the impression that the rest of the world's media has been "screaming" (as well they should) about the torture in US-administered detentions during the Bush/Cheney administration. I certainly saw/heard it mentioned frequently on BBC and on the Deutsche-whatever German news program that is shown nightly on PBS stations here.

If you're referring only to the story in the article you linked -- sheesh, give us some time; it's dated April 30, 2009 -- that's 22 days in the future! (I'm aware that it's a pre-dated article. Nevertheless -- give it a couple of days.)

[quote]Or is it taken as granted that the US government committed torture in the past eight years?[/quote]It is so taken among the majority of the American public, I think. However, many (usually, conservatives) still think torture was justified under the circumstances.

[quote]The important question now is what should be done about it. It is very disheartening that the new administration is showing no inclnation to go after the torturers and punish them like they should be in a civilized country.[/quote]Perhaps you simply haven't noticed (or been informed of) every individual news thread about the new administration. Perhaps you _have_ noticed that there is a possible second Great Depression going on? The current administration has to attend to more immediate large problems than most new administrations do. Very few people here are going to insist on immediate scheduling of war crime trials while banks, auto companies, and insurance companies are failing right-and-left.

Prosecutions for past torture can wait a few months as long as the torture itself has been stopped, and the latter is one of the very first things the new administration did on its first full day in office! Congress has initiated investigations into the multitude of crimes (torture and otherwise) committed by the Bush/Cheney administration. Give them some credit, will you? A mess as big as Bush/Cheney made is not cleaned up overnight!

Particularly when many prominent Republicans have publicly and plainly declared that they "want the Obama administration to fail" and [I]are actively working toward that goal[/I]!

(BTW, I'm starting to routinely add Cheney's name to Bush's because many of the worst policies of the just-past administration have been revealed to have originated in that vice president's office. Cheney has had more influence over the president during the past administration than any other vice president had in their administrations in US history. When I opine that G.W. Bush was our worst, or close to our worst, president ever, part of that is based on his allowing Cheney to have so much influence on policy.

In particular, the torture policies were originated by Cheney.)

Cheesehead, I think the new CIA head Leon Panetta said that those who were following orders will not be prosecuted. Lessons from Nuremberg etc.

I'm inclined to accept Ernst's explanation of unwritten rules. So much the pity because the crimes of Bush/Cheney are as great and perhaps greater than those of Nixon. I guess history will be the ultimate judge but it is scant relief for those who were tortured. Also, Obama's cessation of torture was executive diktat and there is nothing to prevent future presidents from start torturing again if mood strikes.

The article has been online for a couple of days now so yes not enough time. But if you read the ICRC report it makes for some horrific reading.

[QUOTE=ewmayer;168539]there appear to be unwritten rules in Washington about to what extent a new administration can/should go after the previous one for its alleged misdeeds.[/QUOTE]Aren't the Spanish taking care of that??

[quote=garo;168542]Cheesehead, I think the new CIA head Leon Panetta said that those who were following orders will not be prosecuted. Lessons from Nuremberg etc.[/quote](* sigh *)

[quote]I'm inclined to accept Ernst's explanation of unwritten rules.[/quote]Well, if one administration does it, the opposition party will probably want revenge in the future. I think that part of the motivation for Republicans' call for impeachment of President Clinton was payback for impeachment of Nixon (even though it was bipartisan at that time).

[quote]So much the pity because the crimes of Bush/Cheney are as great and perhaps greater than those of Nixon.[/quote]Greater, definitely.

[quote] guess history will be the ultimate judge but it is scant relief for those who were tortured.[/quote]Don't presume that Panetta's is the final word.

[quote]Also, Obama's cessation of torture was executive diktat and there is nothing to prevent future presidents from start torturing again if mood strikes.[/quote]Well, there was "nothing" (aside from law and morals) to "prevent" it before either, in extraordinary circumstances such as post-9/11, except that prior presidents and their supporters had better morals and respect for the law than Bush/Cheney.

[quote]The article has been online for a couple of days now so yes not enough time. But if you read the ICRC report it makes for some horrific reading.[/quote]Each of the twelve subheadings of section 1.3 is something that I have already seen/heard in US newsmedia. It is very sad that those are no longer great shocks to some of us.

Perhaps I should mention that when I was younger, I read several accounts of experiences of prisoners in the Soviet Union, so it was not inconceivable to me that humans (Bush/Cheney) could do such things to other humans. I remain mildly astonished that so many conservatives who were staunchly anti-Communist during the Cold War have not publicly drawn parallels from the Soviets to Bush/Cheney's deeds. Perhaps those conservatives have great difficulty in recognizing the common thread of ideology's being given priority over human decency. Or perhaps I just haven't been perusing the conservative journals where such things may have been discussed. I'm not sure whether to hope it's the latter or the former, or to hope that there's some other explanation.

[quote=cheesehead;168549]

Well, there was "nothing" (aside from law and morals) to "prevent" it before either, in extraordinary circumstances such as post-9/11, except that prior presidents and their supporters had better morals and respect for the law than Bush/Cheney.
[/quote]

True but a proper independent investigation followed by prosecution would seriously reduce the chances of it ever happening again.

[quote] I remain mildly astonished that so many conservatives who were staunchly anti-Communist during the Cold War have not publicly drawn parallels from the Soviets to Bush/Cheney's deeds. Perhaps those conservatives have great difficulty in recognizing the common thread of ideology's being given priority over human decency. [/quote]

But it is not just conservatives. A lot of Democrats are the same. They would recoil in horror at such comparisons. To be fair to them, the scale of the atrocities is very different but the manner is quite similar.

The US DOD ordered the waterboarding of tens of thousands undergoing military S.E.R.E. (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) training.

"Sovereign immunity" vs "Federal Tort" lawsuit?

[QUOTE=AES;171875]The US DOD has ordered the waterboarding of tens of thousands undergoing military S.E.R.E. (Survival, Evasion, Resistance and Escape) training.

"Sovereign immunity" vs "Federal Tort" lawsuit?[/QUOTE]
Assuming it is true (and I wouldn't know either way), don't underestimate consent when you are speculating about legal action against the government.

[QUOTE=99.94;171878]Assuming it is true (and I wouldn't know either way), don't underestimate consent when you are speculating about legal action against the government.[/QUOTE]Also I feel sure that the psychological impact of S.E.R.E training can't be the same because there must be at some level an awareness of some level of restraint existing whereas a foreign national has no certainty that this time won't be the time that the handlers go off the rails and kill (that would be part of the intended psychological impact of the "enhanced" interrogation techniques). Correct me if you disagree.

[QUOTE=only_human;171882]Also I feel sure that the psychological impact of S.E.R.E training can't be the same because there must be at some level an awareness of some level of restraint existing whereas a foreign national has no certainty that this time won't be the time that the handlers go off the rails and kill (that would be part of the intended psychological impact of the "enhanced" interrogation techniques). Correct me if you disagree.[/QUOTE]

Could one differentiate if they believed they were currently drowning?

Don't misinterpret my post; one must volunteer for this training.

Also, I'm not stating it as fact. It's been reported by many veterans including Oliver North.

I meant to frame it as a future lawsuit we'll be paying for.

"Sovereign immunity" vs "Federal Tort"

99.94 was spot on. They're the pitcher and we're the catcher.

[QUOTE=AES;171886]Could one differentiate if they believed they were currently drowning?

Don't misinterpret my post; one must volunteer for this training.[/QUOTE]My personal feeling is that everyone receiving it feels like they are currently drowning and will feel like this even if they understand the process exactly.
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding[/URL]
[QUOTE]Waterboarding is a form of torture that consists of immobilizing the victim on his or her back with the head inclined downwards, and then pouring water over the face and into the breathing passages. By forced suffocation and inhalation of water, the subject experiences drowning and is caused to believe they are about to die.[/QUOTE][QUOTE]In contrast to submerging the head face-forward in water, waterboarding precipitates a gag reflex almost immediately. The technique does not inevitably cause lasting physical damage. It can cause extreme pain, dry drowning, damage to lungs, brain damage from oxygen deprivation, other physical injuries including broken bones due to struggling against restraints, lasting psychological damage or, ultimately, death.[/QUOTE][QUOTE]In May 2008 the journalist Christopher Hitchens voluntarily experienced waterboarding. He managed to resist for twelve seconds the first time, and, embarrassed at his poor performance, he asked to try again. He then managed to resist for 19 seconds. He later told the BBC: "There is a common misconception that waterboarding simulates the sensation of drowning, but you are to all intents and purposes actually drowning". He said that although he was somewhat prepared for his ordeal, he had not been prepared for what came later: "I have been waking up with sensations of being smothered". Hitchens concluded, "if waterboarding does not constitute torture, then there is no such thing as torture. Believe me. It's torture".[/QUOTE]
So, if after all this gagging and inhaling water and asphyxiating and not knowing if the rag is going to be removed from the mouth to breathe, [I]this time[/I], I find it hard to believe how, even with assurances, in that moment, I wouldn't feel that I was going to die.

While experiencing all this and even if expecting death in those moments of panic, in SERE training perhaps, some part might more easily hold onto the hope or belief that the rag will be come out and the water stop.

[QUOTE=only_human;171901]My personal feeling is that everyone receiving it feels like they are currently drowning and will feel like this even if they understand the process exactly.
[URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding"]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding[/URL]

So, if after all this gagging and inhaling water and asphyxiating and not knowing if the rag is going to be removed from the mouth to breathe, [I]this time[/I], I find it hard to believe how, even with assurances, in that moment, I wouldn't feel that I was going to die.[/QUOTE]

A simultaneous hot dog bite and cigarette stoke made me feel the same way a few weeks ago. I offer no argument.

[quote=garo;168596]But it is not just conservatives. A lot of Democrats are the same. They would recoil in horror at such comparisons.[/quote]Okay. Perhaps living in a heavily-Republican suburb doesn't always get me a balanced perspective. Gotta get out more.