[QUOTE=fivemack;379665]And Hamas knows that Israel fires back with that policy; and Israel therefore knows that it will be shooting at non-combatants; and Israel is therefore deliberately killing schoolchildren. It has a very easy alternative: hold fire.[/QUOTE]

Especially when the intended target is not even sheltering inside a building, but [url=http://www.smh.com.au/world/israel-condemned-after-third-deadly-strike-on-un-school-in-gaza-20140804-1002k8.html]riding on a motorcycle *past* a UN shelter[/url]. (But I'm sure the apologists will have a readymade explanation courtesy of the IDF for that one, as well.)

Look, not to defend Hamas here - but consider: You have a nation founded by a bunch of imperial/colonial chessboard-rearrangers via an act of mass expropriation. Over the ensuing decades the displaced are herded into a pair of ever-shrinking and ever-more-blockaded open-air prison camps (West Bank and Gaza), one of which is in all meaningful respects a concentration camp, complete with periodic "mass killings and collective punishments for sport" a la [i]Schindler`s List[/i].

Meanwhile the expropriators set about methodically stealing the rest of the not-originally-granted lands (Israeli settlement policy) and then wax outraged when the KZ inmates dare fight back against their oppressors via the only means available to them, which is asymmetric urban guerrilla warfare. Now back in WW2 when the inmates of the Nazi ghettos and prison camps dared resist they were ever after lauded as "heroes and martyrs" in the Western collective consciousness. Here, those resisting are branded "terrorists" and retaliation is via ruthless S.S.-worthy collective punishment. The double standard is so glaringly obvious that one must be either a Zionist or drinker of the western MSM pro-Zionist Kool-ade not to see it for what it is.

Now, Hamas has clearly calculated that the only way to gain any traction in the western media is by inciting the Israelis to kill civilians on a truly horrific scale, which the Israelis appear happy to do. Based on the oh-so-belated questioning of Israeli tactics in the western MSM, the Hamas calculus, although murderous, appears to be correct.

[QUOTE=fivemack;379665]And Hamas knows that Israel fires back with that policy; and Israel therefore knows that it will be shooting at non-combatants; and Israel is therefore deliberately killing schoolchildren. It has a very easy alternative: hold fire.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. Right. Hold fire. While Hamas murders Israeli teenagers and
deliberately fires rockets at civilians. And openly has a policy calling
for destruction of Israel and death to Jews.

While not perfect, Israel makes *some* effort to avoid civilian
casualties even as Hamas DELIBERATELY puts its citizens in harm's
way for propaganda purposes.

If Israel is targeting civilians, they are doing a piss-poor job.
They could easily have run civilian casualties into the 10's of thousands
if they wanted to. They could easily use incendiaries instead of the
targetted weapons they use.

Your response is fucking hypocrisy. Egypt offered a truce. Hamas turned
it down. It is they and they alone who bear responsibility for the
consequences.

This is a WAR. Collateral damage happens, even when one side or another makes an effort to avoid it. GET OVER IT.

I also argue that in modern times, the distinction between soldier
and civilian is unreal. The government waging the war was put in place
by civilians. Noone forced them to do so. The civilians provide
supplies and munitions. They work in factories to build the weapons.


There is no such thing anymore as a war where armies march out to
an isolated battlefield where noone else is around.

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;379700]Yeah. Right. Hold fire. While Hamas murders Israeli teenagers and
deliberately fires rockets at civilians. And openly has a policy calling
for destruction of Israel and death to Jews.

While not perfect, Israel makes *some* effort to avoid civilian
casualties even as Hamas DELIBERATELY puts its citizens in harm's
way for propaganda purposes.

If Israel is targeting civilians, they are doing a piss-poor job.
They could easily have run civilian casualties into the 10's of thousands
if they wanted to. They could easily use incendiaries instead of the
targetted weapons they use.

Your response is fucking hypocrisy. Egypt offered a truce. Hamas turned
it down. It is they and they alone who bear responsibility for the
consequences.

This is a WAR. Collateral damage happens, even when one side or another makes an effort to avoid it. GET OVER IT.

I also argue that in modern times, the distinction between soldier
and civilian is unreal. The government waging the war was put in place
by civilians. Noone forced them to do so. The civilians provide
supplies and munitions. They work in factories to build the weapons.


There is no such thing anymore as a war where armies march out to
an isolated battlefield where noone else is around.[/QUOTE]


Furthermore, people are trying to blame Israel for civilian deaths that number
in the 100's, and calling it "sluaughter".

Meanwhile, very little attention is paid to the hundreds of THOUSANDS
civilian deaths in Syria, caused by Muslim attacks on Muslims.
And similar shenanigans in Iran, Iraq, Afghanistan, etc., while women are
murdered and raped in Pakistan over "honor", and other women are ritually
mutilated throughout the Muslim world.

The Muzzies treat their own people as less than human; especially women.
How DARE they criticize Israel for trying to survive?

I supposed that is OK, however. Israel has always been subjected to a double standard; surrounded by enemies whose STATED goal is the destruction of Israel.

Israel, OTOH, [i]seemingly[/i] only wants to destroy the Hamas tunnels,
rockets, and rocket launching sites. I do agree that there may be other,
unstated purposes, but this is speculation.

I believe I could make about two arguments against about each of the sentences you wrote but let me limit myself.

[QUOTE=ewmayer;379696] Over the ensuing decades the displaced are herded into a pair of ever-shrinking and ever-more-blockaded open-air prison camps (West Bank and Gaza)[/QUOTE]

ever-shrinking? Not really. A return to the cease fire lines of 1949-1967 would not be in the interest of either the Israeli people nor the Arab people. Too many Arabs would end up in Israel and Israel would not be able to defend itself. So the best solution would be to give the arable and fertile valleys were the main Arab towns are to the Arabs and the barren hill tops which so far throughout history have only be used to by Arabs to shell Israeli towns to the Israelis who have build towns on them. What area is transferred to the Israelis can be compensated by Arab towns in Israel that go to the Arab state they want. Despite popular and cultivated believe, all the announcements of new settlements are really not what they seem. It is all about new neighborhoods in existing Israeli settlements.

When Israel withdrew from Gaza it also withdrew from four settlements in the Westbank with a promise to hand over even more to the new to build state in return for security guarantees from the new state and backed up by the US and Europe. Israel delivered, the rest did not.

Why is it not acceptable to build a Palestinian state without the capacity to destroy Israel? Why do the people who make the decisions for the Palestinian people insist on getting annihilation capacity before building a new state?

[QUOTE=ewmayer;379696]
Now, Hamas has clearly calculated that the only way to gain any traction in the western media is by inciting the Israelis to kill civilians on a truly horrific scale, which the Israelis appear happy to do. Based on the oh-so-belated questioning of Israeli tactics in the western MSM, the Hamas calculus, although murderous, appears to be correct.[/QUOTE]

I can agree to one thing. It is the desinterest of the European people and governments, and to a lesser extend that of the US, in the details of this conflict and region and their overeagerness to go haywire against the other party once there are civilian casualties that stimulates Hamas to ensure there are civilian casualties. The people in Gaza die precisely because of the European and American involvement. If we would stop rewarding Hamas for it, it would stop. But I don't see that happening.

So who is responsible for the civilian casualties in Gaza?

a. First and foremost Europe and the US who shell out the rewards.
b. Second, Hamas for ensuring the casualties are there.
c. A long list of everyone, no one in particular and so on.
d. Israel for dropping the actual bombs.

[QUOTE=tha;379740]


<snip>
So who is responsible for the civilian casualties in Gaza?

a. First and foremost Europe and the US who shell out the rewards.
b. Second, Hamas for ensuring the casualties are there.
c. A long list of everyone, no one in particular and so on.
d. Israel for dropping the actual bombs.[/QUOTE]

The latest Hamas salvo:

[url]http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/08/05/hamas-spokesman-doubles-down-on-jews-eat-christian-blood-libel-when-confronted-by-wolff-blitzer-on-cnn-video/[/url]

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;379748]The latest Hamas salvo:[/QUOTE]

Being very sincere Silverman, what is going on in "meat space" today is almost the definition of unimaginable. While we play around with our little computers, and our little theories.

Google for Chris Gunness.

Imagine being there then.

[QUOTE=chalsall;379753]Being very sincere Silverman, what is going on in "meat space" today is almost the definition of unimaginable. While we play around with our little computers, and our little theories.

Google for Chris Gunness.

Imagine being there then.[/QUOTE]

It is just more propaganda. Concentrate on a small number killed
by Israel during a war, while ignoring the thousands being killed in
Syria and elsewhere.

Hamas uses its population as human shields. The responsibility for
these deaths lies with them.


From the Gunness article referred to above:

"Gaza's Ministry of Health said at least 17 people were killed and 90 wounded by the school shelling. An Israeli military spokesman told the New York Times that Israeli troops did not target UN facilities, but did respond to Palestinian militant fire from nearby the school in Jabaliya refugee camp."


The Palestinians have no right to fire on Israeli forces FROM A NEARBY SCHOOL, then complain about retaliatory fire.

This is a WAR. Casualties exist. Get over it.

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;379756]The Palestinians have no right to fire on Israeli forces FROM A NEARBY SCHOOL, then complain about retaliatory fire.[/QUOTE]

I agree with that. What the flying fsck are they doing firing rockets so close to a "safe house" (unless, of course, there are different factions and strategies labelled under the same name)? Conversely, might the Israelis understand this strategy, and simply shoot the rockets out of the sky as they claim to be able to, without shooting back?

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;379756]This is a WAR. Casualties exist. Get over it.[/QUOTE]

My fundamental question is why does war still exit in this day and age? Who is making the money? Who has the strategic advantage?

And, fundamentally, why are so many mistakes being made by the "West"? The "East" take grudges seriously. Perhaps we should consider that in our actions when we ask for reconciliation.

My apologies if that is stupidly naive.

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;379756]It is just more propaganda.....

This is a WAR. Casualties exist. Get over it.[/QUOTE]

[I]Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.[/I]

[QUOTE=garo;379762][I]Ceterum autem censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.[/I][/QUOTE]

Relevance?

I'm having brain damage. Carthage was destroyed.......

[QUOTE=R.D. Silverman;379764]Relevance?[/QUOTE]

You're showing "your skirt".