Deleted posts...
 

If I'm out of line here, the admin of this forum should properly chastise me and tell me where else I should have posted this thread. Or if it can be moved elsewhere, please do.

What will be following is an entire exchange of several posts that Anonymous, VBCurtis, em99010pepe, Kosmaj and I had at RPS and we are feuding over "No Prime Left Behind" (NPLB) reservation of some k's<300. Kosmaj has resorted to deleting 5 of mine and not responding directly.

NPLB was kind enough to mention that we are going to search the k's to avoid double-effort between our project and the RPS project only to be met with a huge amount of wrath.

What I want brought up openly and publically is that Kosmaj has deleted 5 of my posts for no reason and closed the thead and resorted to calling me names. This after I made an offer to help their project and work with them to no avail.By posting all related posts here, everyone will see both sides of the exchange.

Give me about 10 mins. after this post to post the entire exchange.

Any comments both pro and con are welcome.


Gary

Post 1 of the exchange by Anonymous [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=139941&postcount=190"]here[/URL]:

Hi all,

As part of a new effort to help push forward a number of k<300 that are significantly "behind" their neighbors as far as testing level is concerned, the No Prime Left Behind project is reserving the following currently unreserved k's, all searched to n=600K except k=289:

65, 115, 149, 175, 179, 185, 199, 215, 227, 229, 239, 241, 257, 265, 271, 289, 293

With the exception of k=289, which we will be reserving for the range of n=520K-1M, all of the above k's are reserved for the range of n=600K-1M.

We will be starting a public team sieve for these k's within the next week or two, and plan to start an LLR team drive when that is concluded, so if any of you guys want to help search these k's, feel free to come on over! :smile:

Anon :smile:

Post 2 of the exchange by Kosmaj [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=139947&postcount=191"]here[/URL]:

Prime Search has never searched k<250, and since several years ago they haven't searched k<300 either (with exception of Griffin at k=255). On the other hand RPS, and 15k before, have been committed to k<300 from the beginning. We've searched some Ks from as low as n=20k.

In other words, [B]your reservation makes no sense[/B]! You have your 300 < k < 1000, 350 of them, that's more than enough.

And Ks at 600k are [B]not[/B] "behind" for prime search in general. Some k<100 of the k*2^n+1 form are still not completely tested below 500k!

Post 3 of the exchange by VBCurtis [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=139954&postcount=192"]here[/URL]:

Anon-
I assume this means you will credit RPS as the project, not primesearch?

What is the reasoning to start another team drive when we have a drive on k's of very similar size already sieved yet untested at the levels you are aiming at?
RPS has a history of having some k's tested as team drives, others left open to reservation for individual testers. We have many files already sieved in the 600k to 1M range, yet many longtime RPS members like to sieve for themselves. If your main goal is to get as many k's to 1M as possible, test the Masser files, or the 6th drive. We don't need more sieving done right now, but we do like having individual k's available at a level where an individual with 1-3 machines can make useful progress on his/her own. If you take all remaining k's currently under 1M, that opportunity is lost to the extent that megabits are MUCH slower for individuals with few machines to make progress on. This is exactly the reason I left these k's out of the 6th drive- I could have sieved all of them, but we like the idea of leaving some for individual reservations.
There is efficiency in sieving many k's all at once, but a yet greater efficiency in sieving a large range of n all at once. If you do go ahead with a k<300 search, please consider honoring our wishes to leave some k's for individual RPS members; you can compensate for this by taking fewer k's higher than 1M- high enough to make a project of similar length, and likely with a more efficient sieve.

Please explain how you conclude these k's are "behind". I'm interested in the thought process, why you are choosing RPS k's instead of some other smaller unsearched candidates (proths under 300? Riesels in 1000-2000? etc). The top-5000 cutoff is ~400k, I think; primes that take twice as long to test as the cutoff prime don't seem behind to me, particularly when there are quite a few k's in 300-400 also only tested to 600k-- and you already have those sieved to 1M!

I suspect by the time you test 300-400 to 1M, many of these k's under 300 would be reserved and advanced toward 1M, if not higher. With so much already sieved and ready to test both in RPS and NPLB, I hope you will reconsider your effort, which removes the opportunity for individuals to run individual k's start-to-finish with their own sieving effort. Review AES's entry into RPS and reservations for an example of a recent individual tester- he has both team participation and his own k's.

-Curtis

Post 4 of the exchange by em99010pepe [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=139962&postcount=193"]here[/URL]:

My concern here is the excess of work to be tested on such limited CPU power.

Post 5 of the exchange by Anonymous [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=139977&postcount=194"]here[/URL]:

Kosmaj and Curtis,

First of all, why is it at all odd that we are reserving these k's? After all, we'd hardly be the first project to reserve k<300's for themselves, and no stink was ever made about them. (In fact, if memory serves, I think when RPS was first started, it was publicly stated that they by no means held the sole rights to k<300 and that other projects were welcome to the unreserved k's. I can also think of numerous k<300 right off the top of my head that are reserved by other projects--k=1, 3, 27, 121, etc.)

Conversely, if anyone at RPS wishes to reserve any of NPLB's 300<k<1001 k's, they are more than welcome to reserve and search there. They can even report primes as RPS if they'd like--all we ask is that if they wish to use a sieve file provided by NPLB, they report as PrimeSearch, otherwise they're welcome to report however they like. The reverse is also true: currently I am doing some k=5 work that I got from Curtis, and because the sieve file is from RPS, any primes that I may find from that file will be reported as fully and unequivocably RPS.

As for why I feel that these specific k<300 are "behind" where they should be, that is because NPLB is estimating that they'll reach n=600K on all of 300<k<1001 no later than the end of this year, and as soon as we reach that point we'll continue right on up past 600K--thus, does it make sense that with 300<k<1001 going past 600K, some k<300 are still sitting around at 600K?

The way I see it, it's not a qusestion of NPLB having "enough" k's already, but instead a question of which k's have been neglected in searching and really should be higher, based on comparisons both with higher k's and with the +1 side. NPLB's mission is to tackle the k's and k-ranges that have not been searched contiguously and accurately to a high enough level, and bring them up to where they should be--regardless of whether it's 300<k<1001, k<300, or 1003<k<2000 (a range that we plan to do in the future).

After all, what's the use of all this prime searching if it's not going to be done in an orderly and reasonably contiguous manner? Last I heard, the main reason why this stuff has any use is to hopefully gather enough data that will show patterns to eventually help us crack the secret of where prime numbers reside on the number line. And in order to get meaningful patterns, you have to have things searched contiguously, and you also have to have neighboring k's all searched up to at least roughly the same amount.

Besides, why's anyone complaining? All we're doing is picking up a bunch of [B]unreserved[/B] k's that nobody's shown any interest in for quite a while, and pushing up their testing level for you guys. And I'm pretty sure we'll manage to search them a lot faster than they would have been searched had they just sat around here until someone eventually reserved them, one by one. What's there to complain about? :smile:

Anon :smile:

Post 6 of the exchange by ME.

This is the FIRST post that was deleted by Kosmaj. Why? I can't say.


[quote]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Hum. I was surprised by the response to Anon's reservation for NPLB. I was surprised because people like Jeffrey who are not associated with RPS have reserved multiple k’s and not reported primes as RPS. So we didn’t feel it would be a big deal.

RPS and NPLB have an opposite way of searching for primes. RPS allows much flexibility in individual-k reservations and does less team efforts. NPLB prefers to have large team efforts while allowing some individual-k reservations. Neither is right or wrong. They're just different. We've reserved the k's because it appears that everyone at RPS is maxed out on the k's they're searching and most of the k's had not been searched in nearly 2 years. Also, many other people at RPS seem interested in searching k>1001. So most of the k's would likely sit at n=600K for quite some time.

I thought I'd offer up some explanations to ease people's concerns about NPLB's reservation here:

1. In the past, RPS has previously searched k=300-1001 and reported primes as RPS. So there is clearly precedence in this reservation. Also, Jeffrey, who is not associated with RPS, previously reserved and search 5-6 k's and didn't report them as RPS. Rob and others not associated with RPS have done the same. The only projects that own k's are GIMPS, 321, 2721, and 12121. In other words, all projects besides these don't own k's, they just coordinate searching efforts for ranges of k, ranges of n, or some other manner that suits their particular project.

2. NPLB has well more than enough resources for this. I have 10 quads myself. If I put 4 quads on this effort 24x7, I could finish it in < 1 year. I don't plan to do so. Likely I'll put 1-2 quads on it and many of our faithful searchers will assist with it. 3 of those searchers have large resources: Bruce, Lennart, and Beyond. At the moment, NPLB is in a serious sieving mode and some people have idled their machines for the summer so the drives have progressed more slowly than usual. Regardless, I noticed that NPLB still increased it’s top-5000 score faster than RPS for almost 2 months up until the last month when you guys found some large primes for n>1M such that we could not keep up.

3. RPS had plenty of time to reserve these k's. All except 2-3 of them went nearly 2 years without being touched. The other 2-3 were nearing 1 year. If something lies dormant long enough, someone or another project is bound to pick it up.

4. People at RPS are more than welcome to reserve k=300-1001, search them, and report them as RPS. They just have to stay ahead of our drives. This shouldn't be a big deal.


As a gesture of goodwill: I’d like to offer the following: I’ll search an n=10K range of your 6th drive and of course report any primes as RPS. I’ll put a quad on it starting next Thursday so it should be done fairly quickly.[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Gary[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

Now at this point, as you know, Kosmaj deleted the above post. Upon seeing the deletion, I reposted the exact same words in the above post but added the below 4-5 paras.

Take the above post and add the following wording to it to get what I reposted:

[quote]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Now to the part that is kind of sad but it has to be stated publicly now because it's happened twice:

Kosmaj is deleting my posts that are only explanatory or good-natured if he doesn’t agree with them. He's now deleted 2 of them recently, one here that was very similar to this one from about 6 hours ago (minus these last 2-3 paragraphs) and one in the k=17 thread from about 2 days ago where I made a light-hearted joke about the range that is being ‘secretly’ searched by 'RPS' as being searched by some high political figure. I'm sure there will be some people that will read this before he deletes it again.

Kosmaj, I will continue to post this and you can continue to delete it so suit yourself because I'm saving it off this time and will post it again within a few hours (or mins.) if you delete it again. You can't be on 24 hours a day and eventually everyone else will see my post. They will see the cat-and-mouse game and will wonder why you can't respond to it or simply ignore it like most admins would if they don't agree with something.

You can complain to Xyzzy if you want but I'm not attacking anyone. I’m only explaining things and making a kind gesture so good luck with that.

I've even made the kind offer of searching your 6th drive as a gesture of goodwill and reporting primes as RPS yet you deleted my post? Why? So people don't see the offer of goodwill that I made? Probably so.

My offer of searching your 6th drive still stands. If you choose to delete my post again, that offer will still stand because this exact same post will be reposted.


Gary[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

At this point, Carlos (em99010pepe) stepped in and, without any request from me, reposted my entire post. He must have seen what happened and saved if off.

I just wanted to take this moment to thank Carlos publicly for the kind gesture! :smile:

Of course in stepped Kosmaj and deleted Carlos's repost of my post and responded with the name calling:

Post 7 of the exchange by Kosmaj [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=140297&postcount=197"]here[/URL]:

[quote]
To Gary,

Only jerks keep on posting their worthless messages.
It's up to you to show who you are.
[/quote]

Kosmaj is showing an arrogant attitude towards Gary and Anon comments deleting their posts like he wants to hide something. We are here to find primes and not to fight each other. Now I understand why Benson is searching for primes k<300 without giving a s*** to Kosmaj, he is doing the right thing.

Carlos

Post 8 of the exchange by me.

This is the SECOND post deleted by Kosmaj:

[quote]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]And it takes a really big man to call someone a jerk and not respond to the points in a worthwhile post or simply ignore it if he doesn't agree with it. I guess the post wasn't so worthless since someone I didn't even ask to repost it did so.

Be a man and respond like a man would. The post was innocuous enough to begin with so why not just ignore it? Now it's made you look quite silly because now people publicly know that you delete posts without informing anyone including the person who wrote them.

There are now 3 of us who will continue to repost the post if you delete it so give it up dude. You're out-numbered.

I've saved this one off too. If you delete it, I and perhaps others will repost it also. You can no longer hide behind having the power of an admin and being able to delete posts. As a matter of fact, I think I'll save off any post that I post here in the future and repost it if it gets deleted.

I guess this means you don't want me to help you with your 6th drive. :missingteeth::missingteeth:

Gary[/FONT][/COLOR]
[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana][/quote][/FONT][/COLOR]

Of course Kosmaj deleted my prior two posts and responded with another tirade. Post 9 of the exchange by Kosmaj [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=140375&postcount=198"]here[/URL]:

[quote]
To Gary and Anon

If it was not already clear from before:
We don't want to deal or cooperate with you in any way.
We don't want to read your junk mail, and waste time responding to it.
You are not welcome on these pages.

We consider your latest reservation of 20 Ks void.

This is the end of discussion.
Please go away and leave us alone.
[/quote]

Hey Benson,

In case you read this thread Kosmaj is running K's 5, 15, 17 and others behind the stage ( I helped him...my bad!). I suggest you start attacking above 2M.

Cheers,

Carlos

I then reposted all my prior 2 posts again and added another post stating that I informed Xyzzy about the situation.

Unfortunately I inadvertantly deleted that one but it was also matter-of-fact.

Subsequent to that, Kosmaj once again deleted all THREE of my posts.

Then it gets interesting once more...

A good question was brought up in [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=140406&postcount=199"]this post[/URL] by MooooMoo:

[quote]
So does this mean that I (or any other individual) can reserve k=241? Just wondering, because that k is not listed as available on the [URL="http://www.rieselprime.org/"][COLOR=#22229c]www.rieselprime.org[/COLOR][/URL] page.
[/quote]

Kosmaj's lovely response to MooooMoo's post [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=140408&postcount=200"]here[/URL]:

[quote]
MooMoo

Yes you can, and you are welcome to do so!
[/quote]

My kind response to MooooMoo that was ONCE AGAIN deleted by Kosmaj:

[quote]

Suit yourself Mike. We don't get upset about such things.

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Wouldn't it be faster for you in the long run for us to sieve it and then you search it yourself? We'll have all of them sieved in < 2 months. That's what we offer is excellently sieved files for all k's. All that we ask is that if you use our sieve file that you report them as Primesearch.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]If you'd like to reserve it and sieve it yourself, I'm sure that Karsten would add your name on the reservation and our effort would, in effect, become a double-check...not a big deal to us. 5-10% of our efforts are double-checks anyway. If you sieve it, of course you can then feel free to report it under any project that you want or none at all.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]We're easy to get along with and don't take offense to people searching however and wherever they like. We just aim to fill in holes and gaps as the project says 'No prime left behind'. [/FONT][/COLOR]


[COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Gary[/FONT][/COLOR]
[/quote]

Upon seeing that my post again was deleted, I reposted in the NPLB forum [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=140410&postcount=1"]here[/URL].

Subsequent to the deleting of 4 posts by me, one that was a simple response to MooooMoo's good question, Kosmaj closed the thread so that I could not repost anymore. I suspect he'll open it up again when he sees I'm not around or create a new one. But my posts are in a more permanent place here now so I won't waste my time there any further.

OK, I'm done now. Sorry to inundate the forum here. It was the only way I could show everything on both sides appropriately.

Admins should act in a mature manner and only delete posts after they have informed people that they are doing so or have posted in their project that posts may be deleted at any time.

It IS possible for projects to work together on things but only if both sides are willing to give a little. Had Kosmaj responded appropriately, NPLB after some discussion, probably would gladly have worked together with RPS on these k's and shared the primes. As it is, that's impossible now. It's a sad day for prime searching when people act in such ways.

Carlos, thanks again. Your responses here cracked me up. As much as I'd like to rub it in a little more, I'll refrain. :smile:


Gary

More were deleted.

[quote=em99010pepe;140822]More were deleted.[/quote]
Yeah, I know--there was a post by me in the k<300 thread that I made yesterday that was deleted. Here's a copy of it for reference:

[quote=Anonymous][quote=Kosmaj;139947]Prime Search has never searched k<250, and since several years ago they haven't searched k<300 either (with exception of Griffin at k=255). On the other hand RPS, and 15k before, have been committed to k<300 from the beginning. We've searched some Ks from as low as n=20k.

In other words, [B]your reservation makes no sense[/B]! You have your 300 < k < 1000, 350 of them, that's more than enough.

And Ks at 600k are [B]not[/B] "behind" for prime search in general. Some k<100 of the k*2^n+1 form are still not completely tested below 500k![/quote]I've just noticed on the rieselprime.org [URL="http://www.rieselprime.org/Summary00300.htm"]300<k<2000 page[/URL] that Amphoria has a number of k's (495, 585, 615, 705, 765, 825, 885, 915, 945, and 975, specifically) reserved within the 400<k<1001 range for n>600K, which is fully within NPLB/PrimeSeach's "territory" per se. Now, mind you, we don't mind at all if others search in our range--after all, it's just less work for us to do! :smile: But, with this in mind, I find it illogical that RPS would have a problem with another project doing practically the same thing in their range, and for fully unreserved k's to boot!

I hope you guys understand where we're coming from here--all we're trying to do is make sure that lower k's are at least up to the same, preferably higher, level than 300<k<1001 is. Otherwise, what's the use? If someone's looking for patterns in the primes (which, as far as I can tell, is the primary practical use for all this work we and other non-conjecture-based prime-search projects are doing), what good is it going to do them if everything is all disjointed, some ranges searched significantly higher than some parts of others, etc.? I'm sorry if this is a potential annoyance for individual users who want to search their own k's from a low level, but we must always remember that searching k's and all that stuff is the [I]means[/I] to which to accomplish an end, not the end in and of itself. Thus, it is a waste of time and effort to worry about the means at the expense of the end.

Anon :smile:[/quote]

This belongs in the Feedback Forum and not the lounge. The super-mods are looking at the issue now and will get back to you shortly.

[quote=garo;140945]This belongs in the Feedback Forum and not the lounge. The super-mods are looking at the issue now and will get back to you shortly.[/quote]


Garo,

Thanks for moving it to the appropriate place and getting back with me.


Gary

I just noticed that Anon's post in the RPS forum that is shown earlier in this thread and that was NOT deleted at RPS when I started this thread IS deleted at RPS now.

Here is a link to that post above:
[URL]http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=140417&postcount=6[/URL]

It's kind of odd that our posts that attempt reasonable explanations of the situation keep going bye-bye.


Gary

[QUOTE=gd_barnes;140963]I just noticed that Anon's post shown earlier in this thread that was NOT deleted when I started this thread IS deleted now.

Here is a link to that post above:
[URL]http://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=140417&postcount=6[/URL][/QUOTE]That's actually been deleted for quite a while, I think. :smile:

The super-mods aren't particularly motivated to get involved. The subforums are provided by the trolls as a free gift to other prime searching projects. The project leaders are made the moderators of the subforum so that the trolls and the other super-mods don't have to spend any time managing these subforums.

It is sad that Kosmaj cannot play nicely here. I'd simply take it as an invitation to not participate in his project and/or not cooperate with his project. There are plenty of other projects that will appreciate your resources.

Frankly, I don't know which project is or should be "in charge of" which k's and n's.

[quote=Prime95;141076]The super-mods aren't particularly motivated to get involved. The subforums are provided by the trolls as a free gift to other prime searching projects. The project leaders are made the moderators of the subforum so that the trolls and the other super-mods don't have to spend any time managing these subforums.

It is sad that Kosmaj cannot play nicely here. I'd simply take it as an invitation to not participate in his project and/or not cooperate with his project. There are plenty of other projects that will appreciate your resources.

Frankly, I don't know which project is or should be "in charge of" which k's and n's.[/quote]


Thanks for the input. More than anything, I just wanted it documented for everyone to see.

I haven't searched for RPS in quite a while but was being kind enough to let them know what we were up to so that they didn't duplicate any effort of ours.

Unfortunately I will no longer coordinate efforts with them. If we believe k's should be searched, we will do so and announce it in our own forum. It will be up to them to check our forums instead of the other way around.


Thanks,
Gary

It seems some posts have mysteriously vanished from [url=http://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=10526]this thread[/url]... :huh:

[QUOTE=ixfd64;141294]It seems some posts have mysteriously vanished from [url=http://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=10526]this thread[/url]... :huh:[/QUOTE]

Weird. What's missing? There wasn't anything objectionable in that thread that I recall.

[quote=ixfd64;141294]It seems some posts have mysteriously vanished from [URL="http://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=10526"]this thread[/URL]... :huh:[/quote]
You are probably thinking of T Rex' vacation posts in
"Holy New Mersenne, Batman"

I'm pretty sure that thread had more than two replies.

[QUOTE=ixfd64;141338]I'm pretty sure that thread had more than two replies.[/QUOTE]

In case I wasn't clear: I was talking about George's "[url=http://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=10526]Vacation[/url]" thread. I vaguely recall there were several intermediate posts before Uncwilly's. I'm having a somewhat hard time believing that nobody replied to that thread until M45 was reported.

I also remember Ernst posting something about gorwing up reading Batman comics (incidentally, just a few days after I started the "Holy new Mersenne prime, Batman!" thread). However, I can't seem to find that particular post either.

One thing of note: I was trying to access various posts by entering the post ID into the URL, and some of them (in fact, quite a few) returned an "Invalid Post" error. This means either that the post was deleted, or that the total number of posts hasn't reached that number yet. If the post was in a private forum, I should have gotten a "you do not have permission" error instead.

It's possible for users to delete their own posts, but only during a short time after the post was made.

I've noticed that one of my posts from another "vacation" thread was deleted. I'll admit that my post was slightly "trollish," so maybe that warranted deletion. However, I don't know about the other posts... I just have an odd feeling that someone is deleting things they shouldn't. Do the admins have access to some sort of deletion log?

[quote]Do the admins have access to some sort of deletion log?[/quote]Yes, there is a moderator transaction log. The current log has 33464 entries. The snake prunes the log every few weeks. We do not know why the snake does this, but the trolls assure me that this is SOP.

[SIZE=1]Snake1: Find the paper shredder! We're working late tonight![/SIZE]

[quote=ixfd64;141483]In case I wasn't clear: I was talking about George's "[URL="http://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=10526"]Vacation[/URL]" thread. I vaguely recall there were several intermediate posts before Uncwilly's. I'm having a somewhat hard time believing that nobody replied to that thread until M45 was reported.

[/quote]

Until the arrival of M45 and UncWilly's post, there was little
point in responding to George's OP, especially since he was on
vacation. I noticed that it was hanging fire for quite a few days.

How prophetic "you have my permission to find a new prime while
I'm away" was to prove:smile:

It seems that several posts in [url=http://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=10636]this thread[/url] were deleted as well. I guess George considered the intermediate replies to be unimportant, seeing that he fixed the problem.

[QUOTE=ixfd64;142606]It seems that several posts in [url=http://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=10636]this thread[/url] were deleted as well. I guess George considered the intermediate replies to be unimportant, seeing that he fixed the problem.[/QUOTE]

There were no intermediate replies when I posted my reply. Does the forum software have some bugs???

We never saw any reply other than George's. And we read every post on the forum.

:ouch2:

[SIZE=1]Snake1: Do you know how freakin' hard it is to work an optical pointing device with no arms?[/SIZE]

Hmm, I'm probably remembering things wrong, then.

However, I've noticed that the thread about Mally's passing seems to be gone.

[quote]However, I've noticed that the thread about Mally's passing seems to be gone.[/quote]
[URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=9327"]This one?[/URL]

Yeah. For some odd reason, it didn't show up in the search feature.

[quote]Yeah. For some odd reason, it didn't show up in the search feature.[/quote]
Mouse over the "Search" text and read the pop-up balloon.

Making a copy of my post just in case Kosmaj decides to delete it from this [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=8621&page=5"]thread[/URL].

""""[quote=Cruelty;143947]Well, we don't like it either, but we were forced to do it by [URL="http://primes.utm.edu/bios/page.php?id=534"]Mr Benson's[/URL] behaviour :sad:[/quote]

I don't understand when RPS is behaving like Benson when it concerns with NPLB drive #4.
And please don't delete my post."""""

As suspected the post was deleted. When are the mods going to take an action?

Re-posted my post.

And Kosmaj closed that thread...what an -!

[quote=em99010pepe;143954]And Kosmaj closed that thread...what an unpleasant person![/quote]

What a sweetheart.

Another relative to that - who has a brain issue.

Here is a post that I just placed in the RPS k=257 thread [URL="http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=10731"]here[/URL] that I think is a good idea to post here:

[quote=gd_barnes;144425]If this post as well as the next post stay here for more than 2 days without being deleted and without further flame wars and insults, I will do exactly what Curtis has requested. It will be pulled from our effort and I'll forward the results files to Curtis.
Gary[/quote]

[quote=Kosmaj;144449]
Furthermore, we don't want to cooperate or negotiate anything with NPLB because you guys are known as troublemakers and arrogant guys who don't observe established norms, don't listen to opinions of others and so on (the old-timers on these pages know very well what I mean). You don't even represent the PrimeSearch project which was started and is owned by another guy.
[/quote]

We all have our opinions. Everyone looks at things in a different way. Established 'norms' are changed many times in this world because times change. In NPLB's opinion, projects cannot claim "ownership" of large RANGES of k (as opposed to very specific k's such as k=1, 3, 27, 121) for years at a time, especially if those k's remain inactive for long periods. That had to change because it is what the original Primesearch project did and look what happened. They were so far behind it was laughable.

On the k<300 effort, most of these k's that we are searching sat inactive for nearly 2 years. Some were beginning to look like another k=5 that sat at n=~390K for more than 3 years.

I had one simple request in order for NPLB to stop k=257 and send the results to Curtis. That is that no post be deleted and no flame wars be started or insults be thrown in a 2-day time frame. This seemed easy enough but I guess it wasn't.

"troublemakers" and "arrogant guys" clearly classify as insults in anyone's book. Therefore k=257 will stay in NPLB's drive until it is complete. These kinds of insults only hurt RPS in the long run so I just don't understand them. It's up to you what you do with it here.

It's unfortunate that the 2 projects could not coordinate again. NPLB has already offered several weeks ago thru Adam to the admins to stop our drive at n=850K on all k's. It was rejected outright and quickly. So we are willing to compromise but there has to be some give on both sides and the insults must stop so that there is some room for negotiation. Maybe someday...


Gary

I should probably archive my post here, just in case:

[quote=Kosmaj;144449]Now, we are open to proposals from other projects to cooperate on some k<300. Justin came over a few years ago and reserved k=27 and 121, no problems. However, we rejected your proposal to test the 15 Ks in question (already tested to n=600k) since your claim that they were not tested enough was wrong ... It was actually not a proposal but a declaration not open to any discussion.[/quote]
Even though it was stated like any normal reservation (i.e. a declaration, not a proposal), did you ever think to ask Gary not to do that and to discuss it instead of just deleting and locking posts?
[quote=Kosmaj;144449](just consider 217*2^546500+1 found a few day ago)[/quote]
That's a Proth prime, not a Riesel (and I checked that wasn't just a mistake where it really was a Riesel at that k and n - it's a Proth prime). NPLB reserved Riesels only.

And I'll post another couple here...

[quote=Kosmaj;144470]These are not opinions, it is the fact that PrimeSerach/NPLB project broke the well established rule in the prime seraching community as I described above. Period.

Your response just illustrates my points that any discussion with you is noting but a waste of time.

Regarding "inactive" Ks: True, some were not tested since our 2nd Drive in 2006, but at that time they were tested extensively and at n=600k they were not behind by any standards. I mentioned the latest k=217 Proth prime just to illustrate this (and Proths have been tested much more than Riesels because of Fermat divisors). And what happened with your k>300? I haven't seen many reported primes at the 500k level. So you stopped your k>300 search at 520k and came over to claim that our Ks at 600k are falling "behind"?? That's silly and laughable if you ask me.[/quote]

Can you refer me to a written statement of this 'well established rule'. One that dictates that a project is allowed to claim large ranges of k for itself and not allow any other project to search it without being highly offended?

What if NPLB claimed that it owned all k=300-10000 and that we would be highly offended if people or projects did not coordinate with us with insults thrown and flame wars started? That would be just a little bit strange, wouldn't you think? Well, it's the same for k<300 and it's why we don't claim ownership of k=300-1001.

We're willing to negotiate but statements such as 'any discussion with you is nothing but a waste of time' nullify that possibility. It's quite insulting. Any statement that implies that 'you always this' or 'you never that' is simply a personal attack and is intended to stop discussion altogether. It's no different in interpersonal relationships where such statements are quite demeaning. If you're willing to back off of making such statements, perhaps we can negotiate.


Gary

[quote=MooooMoo;144481]I know the question isn't directed at me, but it looks like one of the problems with that reservation is that it reserved a whole bunch of k's (15? 20? I don't remember), not just one or two. The 321 project only reserved k=3, Justin's project only reserved k=27 and k=121, and individuals don't normally reserve more than 4 k's at once.

If I or any other individual were to pick up 15 or so k's at once, I'm pretty sure that whoever reserved those 15 k's had to provide a good reason for testing them. Gary's reason that the k's were too far behind didn't seem to be good enough, so his requests were denied.

By reserving so many k's at once, NPLB was denying individual RPS members the chance to test k's at a low n-level. Not everyone here has a fast machine, and people with slow computers won't be able to make a reasonable progress on megabit primes.

Finally, RPS has been focused on k<300 for many years. RPS has been generous enough to let other projects reserve one or two k's < 300. I'll use the analogy that it's like giving some money to a friend or charity. Any nice person who isn't in the poorhouse would not deny a request to give 25 dollars or so. But if he's asked to give a few thousand dollars, then it would be a problem.[/quote]


Here's a count, that may not be entirely accurate but should be very close:
Kosmaj; reserved 14 k's for several years; 3 k's from NPLB 4th drive for 1 month
Curtis; reserved 16 k's for several years; 2 k's from NPLB 4th drive for 1 month
NPLB; reserved 15 k's for one month

Kind of shoots holes in your argument, doesn't it? No one can claim that we reserved too much if they, as individuals, have more reserved, regardless of the timeframe in which they reserved those k's!

"Generous enough" to "let" other projects search "their" k's. Please. In math, no one can claim ownership of any 'specific area' of the math world. They can let others know that they are working in a specific area or are willing to coordinate efforts for the area. It's no different with prime searching.

What if I all of a sudden decided that I'm going to start a project to search all Proth's for k<300 and that you HAD to coordinate through me any time you searched k<300? People would laugh at me. That's what Benson does with RPS. I'm sure he's tired of you guys claiming that you 'own' all the 'best k's'.

There's a book called "Someone moved my cheese" that is intended for people whose lives are being impacted by corporate downsizing, layoffs, and other changes that impact one's life that one has no control over. I think it would be good reading for many. Things change and that is a fact of life that we cannot control.

Finally, when we are done with our 4th drive, all ranges will be reported completed and results will be available upon request.


Gary

Another from the same thread. Delightfully, none have been deleted yet. :smile:

I'm tired of the bickering. NPLB will pull k=257 from its drive. It was an honest mistake to include it and you guys should be happy that we "double-checked" it with no harm being done. We weren't near filling in the range below your current drive limit. I'm getting ready to send more files to our server folks and it will be pulled out. I'll also mention it in our drive and change the thread name and specifics.

Despite the insults, I don't want further accusations of 'pilfering the RPS 6th drive' thrown if we were to find a prime on it on something that we didn't intend to do in the first place, that is reserve a k that was already reserved.

We will have to agree to disagree on the 'ownership' thing. What Retep states is correct. "Numbers cannot be owned by anyone" despite what one states. If I or Benson or whomever wish to search k=1, 3, 27, or 121, or any other k<300, it is our peragative to do so. The same applies to k=300-1001.

It's only the honorable thing to do to mention one's intention to do work in the areas and check reservation status of the projects that usually search specific area of k in order to avoid double work. That is what we did.

BTW, Kosmaj, I do appreciate you allowing my/our posts to stand this time. Even if the responses haven't been the kind that I would have liked, unkind responses are far perferrable to removal. :smile:


Gary