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-   -   Lingua Latina sive in alia verba, " the Latin language" (https://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=25308)

xilman 2020-02-26 07:33

Lingua Latina sive in alia verba, " the Latin language"
 
[ewm: Split off from my Latin-phrasing comment [url=https://www.mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=538325&postcount=71]here[/url].]

[QUOTE=ewmayer;538325]So from now, one can discuss, say, "a set of largely overlapping regional outbreaks", but the dreaded P-word is [i]verba non grata[/i].[/QUOTE]
Prope est, sed fumigans non lignum unum.

"verbum non gratum".

Dr Sardonicus 2020-02-26 13:55

[QUOTE=xilman;538353]Prope est, sed fumigans non lignum unum.

"verbum non gratum".[/QUOTE]
[i]Prope est, sed fumigans non lignum unum.[/i]

Yeesh. This ranks right up (down) there with "illegetimi non carborundum" in its pretentiousness.

At worst, "verba non grata" is a grammatical gender error. I note that the analogous phrase [i]persona non grata[/i] is singular. But [i]persona[/i] is grammatically feminine, while [i]verbum[/i] is grammatically neuter.

However, the apparent attempt at a literal translation into Latin of "close but no cigar" is much more seriously defective. For one thing, [i]close but no cigar[/i] is an idiom. And like the above fake Latin phrase, the Latin "translation" is anachronistic. Cigars, and their being offered as prizes, were unknown when and where Latin was actually spoken.

I would recommend an actual Latin idiomatic phrase whose meaning is similar to "close but no cigar." I'm sure there are some, but I don't know any offhand. I imagine there is something like "good effort," "tried hard but failed," "ran well but got no laurels," or "fought well in the arena but died."

xilman 2020-02-26 17:35

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;538363]However, the apparent attempt at a literal translation into Latin of "close but no cigar" is much more seriously defective. For one thing, [i]close but no cigar[/i] is an idiom. And like the above fake Latin phrase, the Latin "translation" is anachronistic."[/QUOTE]Of course it is! My translation was very much tongue in cheek.

Nonetheless, Latin is still a living tongue, despite what you may have been taught, and new words and phrases are being invented all the time so that users of the language can refer to present-day concepts. Try wandering over to [url]https://la.wikipedia.org[/url] some time. In particular, note that if I had been serious, I would have used the word "sigarum".

Sic biscuitus disintegrat.

xilman 2020-02-26 19:20

[QUOTE=xilman;538376]Of course it is! My translation was very much tongue in cheek.

Nonetheless, Latin is still a living tongue, despite what you may have been taught, and new words and phrases are being invented all the time so that users of the language can refer to present-day concepts. Try wandering over to [url]https://la.wikipedia.org[/url] some time. In particular, note that if I had been serious, I would have used the word "sigarum".

Sic biscuitus disintegrat.[/QUOTE]Further evidence that Latin is still in use and adapting to the modern world. The Ecaenia ceremony at Oxford where honorary degrees are conferred still uses Latin to explain why a candidate is worthy. Here is a snippet from 2016.

Haec etiam praevidit quibus modis eae fistulae, simul levissimae et validissimae, vim electricam transmissurae essent lumenque vel iacturae vel abditurae. Iam in machinis electronicis construendis adhibentur, sperantque docti se eis ad radios solis in cellulis condendos esse usuros.

Note the presence of "carbon nanotubes", "conduct electricity", "electronic devices" and "solar cells".

Some years back I read an oration in which (a slight modification of) L'Oreal's advertising slogan "because you're worth it" was translated literally in one of the Public Orator's speeches. Unfortunately I have been unable to find it on-line so that I could quote it verbatim.

Nick 2020-02-26 19:37

Our university diplomas in Leiden are still written in Latin, even for degrees with modern names.

Dr Sardonicus 2020-02-26 22:15

[QUOTE=xilman;538376]My translation was very much tongue in cheek.[/QUOTE]
Well, alrighty, then!
:tu:

[QUOTE=xilman;538384]Further evidence that Latin is still in use and adapting to the modern world. The Ecaenia ceremony at Oxford where honorary degrees are conferred still uses Latin to explain why a candidate is worthy.
<snip>[/QUOTE]
Uh-huh. Pretending to take this seriously...

It seems to me that the use of Latin in a ceremony conferring honorary degrees is less about "adapting to the modern world" and more about maintaining a tradition. Not that I have any problem with that, I think it has a quaint charm.

If Oxford still awards degrees which require a [i]thesis and defense in Latin[/i], I imagine those degrees are restricted to explicitly Latin-language subjects like Latin literature.

I am saddened at the abandonment of Latin in school curricula.

Latin used to be the [i]lingua franca[/i] of learning. Isaac Newton [i]invented physics[/i] in Latin! These days, though, apart from the names of things already given in Latin (anatomical terms come to mind), the main use of Latin in science seems to be in the naming of species.

[i]Quomodo ceciderunt robusti[/i]

The fact that Latin has never been widely read by common people since the advent of the printing press, also has a certain historical significance. The Catholic Church used a Latin translation of the Bible. It forbad the Bible being translated into vernacular. This was precisely to prevent people from being able to read it for themselves.

In 1408, England made the translation of any part of the Bible into English a capital offense. Undeterred, William Tyndale translated the New Testament into English, and was working on the Old Testament when he was arrested. On October 6, 1536, he was executed as a heretic. He was strangled (but apparently not quite to death), then burned at the stake.

CRGreathouse 2020-02-27 05:47

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;538399]The Catholic Church used a Latin translation of the Bible. It forbad the Bible being translated into vernacular. This was precisely to prevent people from being able to read it for themselves.[/QUOTE]

The Vulgate was designed for precisely the opposite reason: so that the common people, who spoke Latin, could understand the Bible (which was Greek and Aramaic/Hebrew). But over the long centuries it continued to be used even as languages diverged further and further from Latin and into the various daughter languages. (I don't doubt that solidifying clerical control over medieval northern/western Europe also played a part in the long use of that translation, but without context it's a little hard to make sense of that.)

xilman 2020-02-27 07:33

[QUOTE=CRGreathouse;538413]The Vulgate was designed for precisely the opposite reason: so that the common people, who spoke Latin, could understand the Bible (which was Greek and Aramaic/Hebrew).[/QUOTE]The clue is in the name, if you know your Latin or can recognize words derived from it.

Vulgar, me?

Latin, complete with neologisms, is still in daily use in the upper heirarchies of the Roman Catholic church, especially in the Vatican. Nuntii Latini was broadcast from Finland for 30 years, but shut down last year. I have already pointed you to the Latin Wikipedia site. There are numerous other spoken Latin resources on the net, which is why the Finnish radio station ceased its brodcasts. Typing "spoken latin resources" into a search engine will find them for you.

xilman 2020-02-27 07:36

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;538399]If Oxford still awards degrees which require a [i]thesis and defense in Latin[/i], I imagine those degrees are restricted to explicitly Latin-language subjects like Latin literature.[/QUOTE]I am only just young enough to escape the requirement that all matriculands to Oxford be educated to O Level or the equivalent in Latin. A Latin paper was part of the entrance examination.

LaurV 2020-02-27 09:15

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;538399][I]Quomodo ceciderunt robusti[/I]
[/QUOTE]
[URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komodo_dragon"]Komodo[/URL] dragon's [URL="https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cecum"]cecum[/URL] is robust. Yeah, because he eats all kind of things, including the bones...

xilman 2020-02-27 12:11

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;538399]I am saddened at the abandonment of Latin in school curricula.[/QUOTE]Sic transit gloria mundi.

Dr Sardonicus 2020-02-27 13:59

[QUOTE=xilman;538422]The clue is in the name, if you know your Latin or can recognize words derived from it.
<snip>
[/quote]
And when Jerome did the translation around the Year 400, the appellation was pertinent.

[quote]I have already pointed you to the Latin Wikipedia site. There are numerous other spoken Latin resources on the net, which is why the Finnish radio station ceased its brodcasts. Typing "spoken latin resources" into a search engine will find them for you.[/QUOTE]
And I should want to do this because...?

xilman 2020-02-27 15:03

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;538443]And when Jerome did the translation around the Year 400, the appellation was pertinent.


And I should want to do this because...?[/QUOTE]You appear to doubt the claim that Latin is stillin common use.

Dr Sardonicus 2020-02-27 16:30

[QUOTE=xilman;538451]You appear to doubt the claim that Latin is stillin [color=red][sic][/color] common use.[/QUOTE]
I'll believe it is "in common use" in the sense it was in the time of Saint Jerome if you can show me a community of native speakers. Until then, hopes for a Latin revival fall under the heading

[i] Et expecto resurrectionem mortuorum, et vitam venturi saeculi.[/i]

Uncwilly 2020-02-27 17:24

[QUOTE=xilman;538451]You appear to doubt the claim that Latin is stillin common use.[/QUOTE]So is Klingon, for the same reasons.

CRGreathouse 2020-02-28 02:35

[QUOTE=xilman;538422]The clue is in the name, if you know your Latin or can recognize words derived from it.[/QUOTE]

Indeed, I considered writing "diverged further and further from [i]vulgar[/i] Latin" but decided it would add more confusion (for most) than the small added clarity for those who would already understand.

CRGreathouse 2020-02-28 02:47

[QUOTE=xilman;538422]Latin, complete with neologisms, is still in daily use in the upper heirarchies of the Roman Catholic church, especially in the Vatican.[/QUOTE]

I read an interesting undergraduate thesis some years ago that did stratified sampling in Vatican City to address precisely that. You might be interested; I was able to find it online:
[url=http://rave.ohiolink.edu/etdc/view?acc_num=muhonors1111069773]Latin Allocution and the Applications and Usage of Latin as a Modern Language by the Vatican City State[/url], Michael Connaughton, 2003.

xilman 2020-02-28 10:40

[QUOTE=CRGreathouse;538483]I read an interesting undergraduate thesis some years ago that did stratified sampling in Vatican City to address precisely that. You might be interested; I was able to find it online:
[url=http://rave.ohiolink.edu/etdc/view?acc_num=muhonors1111069773]Latin Allocution and the Applications and Usage of Latin as a Modern Language by the Vatican City State[/url], Michael Connaughton, 2003.[/QUOTE]What a wonderful find! Thank you for pointing me to it.

I love a response in one interview:

[I] I mean degrees in Harvard and Oxford and Cambridge and—that used to be all Latin. You used to have Latin Composition, Greek Composition to get into Oxford, Cambridge.[/I]

As noted above, I escaped that requirement by only a few years.

masser 2020-02-28 15:34

ego sum vitulisque marinis

Dr Sardonicus 2020-02-28 17:12

One reason often given for the prospects of a Latin revival being dim is, Latin grammar is [i]complicated[/i]. And so it seems. I have heard people complain about grammar being difficult, and they were complaining about [i]English[/i] grammar. As my education progressed, I developed the attitude that, if someone thought English grammar was complicated, I knew a sure cure: [i]German[/i] grammar!

German is an "inflected" language, with declensions for four grammatical cases, three grammatical genders, singular and plural. And of course, tenses. Mark Twain, in [i]The Awful German Language[/i], complained that "It is as bad as Latin." But Latin has more grammatical cases than German. Never mind number and the tenses...

This got me to thinking: Why is it that older languages seem to have more complicated grammar than newer ones? A bit of searching on line turned up discussions on this topic.

One thing I failed to find was any mention of the fact that a lot of older languages arose in [i]pre-literate[/i] ages. Before written language was invented, people were, as one of my uncles liked to say, "just as smart and just as capable as we are today." But their living circumstances, and the fact the language was not written, in my opinion, caused them to think [i]differently[/i] than we do today. Perhaps the kind of distinctions they needed to make were different than the kinds that are most useful to us today. And whether a language is written down surely influences its structure.

I recall one of James Burke's PBS series ([i]The Day the Universe Changed[/i], "A Matter of Fact"). He described one of the consequences of the printing press by saying it "took away our memories." Before things were written down, he said, people remembered things by making series of unlikely associations. It is perhaps possible that languages which arose before writing contained features which reflected this way of remembering.

xilman 2020-02-28 17:41

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;538523]One reason often given for the prospects of a Latin revival being dim is, Latin grammar is [i]complicated[/i]. And so it seems. I have heard people complain about grammar being difficult, and they were complaining about [i]English[/i] grammar. As my education progressed, I developed the attitude that, if someone thought English grammar was complicated, I knew a sure cure: [i]German[/i] grammar!

German is an "inflected" language, with declensions for four grammatical cases, three grammatical genders, singular and plural. And of course, tenses. Mark Twain, in [i]The Awful German Language[/i], complained that "It is as bad as Latin." But Latin has more grammatical cases than German. Never mind number and the tenses...

This got me to thinking: Why is it that older languages seem to have more complicated grammar than newer ones? A bit of searching on line turned up discussions on this topic.
[/QUOTE]Colonization, whether military or cultural, is an important influence. Pidgins and creoles are invariably simpler than their parent languages. Afrikaans is essentially Dutch with a greatly simplified grammar and augmented vocabulary. Middle English is simplified Old English with a very extensive admixture of Norman French. We see the same thing happening today where English is a second language to people who need to communicate with English speakers who can't speak Hindi, or Spanish, or whatever.

The evolutionary trend is clear: relatively isolated languages tend to die out because no-one wants to learn them. Ubiquitous languages thrive (for a millennium or two) because everyone wants to use them to speak to others. Grammatical simplification makes the learning process, well, simpler.

xilman 2020-02-28 17:47

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;538523]German is an "inflected" language, with declensions for four grammatical cases, three grammatical genders, singular and plural. And of course, tenses. Mark Twain, in [i]The Awful German Language[/i], complained that "It is as bad as Latin." But Latin has more grammatical cases than German. Never mind number and the tenses...[/QUOTE]
Be thankful that there are only singular and plural. A good many languages also have the dual, as in Classical Greek and Middle Egyptian.

A few fossilised remnants still exist in English, an appendix to our grammar if you will. Consider the words [I]both/either/neither [/I]and the distinction between comparative and superlative as in [I]better/best[/I].

ewmayer 2020-02-28 19:33

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;538523]One thing I failed to find was any mention of the fact that a lot of older languages arose in [i]pre-literate[/i] ages. Before written language was invented, people were, as one of my uncles liked to say, "just as smart and just as capable as we are today." But their living circumstances, and the fact the language was not written, in my opinion, caused them to think [i]differently[/i] than we do today. Perhaps the kind of distinctions they needed to make were different than the kinds that are most useful to us today. And whether a language is written down surely influences its structure.[/QUOTE]

An excellent point ... and pre-literate ages were dominated by clan/tribal-social-group affiliations, which consisted of much smaller aggregations of people than modern cities, but I would argue possessed rather more complex social dynamics - knowing one's place in the tribal social hierarchy (and continually thinking on one's prospects for bettering it) was crucial. The gendering and formal/informal-speech aspects of the old languages reflect that.

Nick 2020-02-28 20:43

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;538523]But Latin has more grammatical cases than German. Never mind number and the tenses...[/QUOTE]
Modern French is descended from Latin but from the version spoken by ordinary people, not the version of Latin commonly taught today.
They used "habeo" to form the past tense, for example.

CRGreathouse 2020-02-29 05:51

[QUOTE=Nick;538548]Modern French is descended from Latin but from the version spoken by ordinary people, not the version of Latin commonly taught today.
They used "habeo" to form the past tense, for example.[/QUOTE]

Yes, Vulgar Latin, that language of the common people, as xilman and I were discussing. All the Romance languages -- Spanish, French, Portuguese, Italian, Romanian, Neapolitan, etc. -- descended from Vulgar Latin; in fact the only surviving Italic languages are Romance languages.

CRGreathouse 2020-02-29 06:00

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;538523]One reason often given for the prospects of a Latin revival being dim is, Latin grammar is [i]complicated[/i]. And so it seems. I have heard people complain about grammar being difficult, and they were complaining about [i]English[/i] grammar. As my education progressed, I developed the attitude that, if someone thought English grammar was complicated, I knew a sure cure: [i]German[/i] grammar!

German is an "inflected" language, with declensions for four grammatical cases, three grammatical genders, singular and plural. And of course, tenses. Mark Twain, in [i]The Awful German Language[/i], complained that "It is as bad as Latin." But Latin has more grammatical cases than German. Never mind number and the tenses...

This got me to thinking: Why is it that older languages seem to have more complicated grammar than newer ones? A bit of searching on line turned up discussions on this topic.

One thing I failed to find was any mention of the fact that a lot of older languages arose in [i]pre-literate[/i] ages. Before written language was invented, people were, as one of my uncles liked to say, "just as smart and just as capable as we are today." But their living circumstances, and the fact the language was not written, in my opinion, caused them to think [i]differently[/i] than we do today. Perhaps the kind of distinctions they needed to make were different than the kinds that are most useful to us today. And whether a language is written down surely influences its structure.

I recall one of James Burke's PBS series ([i]The Day the Universe Changed[/i], "A Matter of Fact"). He described one of the consequences of the printing press by saying it "took away our memories." Before things were written down, he said, people remembered things by making series of unlikely associations. It is perhaps possible that languages which arose before writing contained features which reflected this way of remembering.[/QUOTE]

While I don't accept your premise that older languages are more grammatically complex than modern languages*, I think your thoughts about the different role of language in a mostly illiterate or functionally illiterate** population are insightful and striking.


* We shift the complexity around, but it's still there... for example, in English there's a great deal of nuance to be learned regarding word order and stress and how meaning can be completely be changed by them, but in Latin this is much freer because the functions that we fill in English by word order and stress is filled in Latin by grammatical markers.

** There are indications that workers, tradesmen, etc. in the Roman era may have had very basic literacy, just enough to do things related to their work. It seems that being literate was not thought of as a black-and-white issue but more as a spectrum, with the privately-educated wealthy being fully literate, officers less so, and so on down the line.

pinhodecarlos 2020-02-29 11:50

I really regret not knowing Latin although I had to investigate myself the origin of a few words since Portuguese is so tricky. Born in the 80's I can't recall Latin learning to be on education program in parallel with Portuguese, which certainly was and still is a system fault. Latin and Greek are fundamental.

Dr Sardonicus 2020-02-29 13:47

[QUOTE=CRGreathouse;538570]While I don't accept your premise that older languages are more grammatically complex than modern languages*, I think your thoughts about the different role of language in a mostly illiterate or functionally illiterate** population are insightful and striking.


* We shift the complexity around, but it's still there... for example, in English there's a great deal of nuance to be learned regarding word order and stress and how meaning can be completely be changed by them, but in Latin this is much freer because the functions that we fill in English by word order and stress is filled in Latin by grammatical markers.[/QUOTE]
There's a book out entitled [u]Eats, Shoots, & Leaves[/u] which illustrates the importance of proper punctuation (stress) in English. Take the commas out of the title, and you have a completely different phrase.

My all-time favorite in this department is, [i]What's that in the road ahead?[/i] versus [i]What's that in the road -- a head?[/i]

Also not without complexity is English word [i]pronunciation[/i]. This has probably driven many ESL students 'round the bend. And [i]vocabulary[/i] -- English seems to have an unlimited capacity for borrowing words from other languages.

ewmayer 2020-02-29 21:24

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;538587]There's a book out entitled [u]Eats, Shoots, & Leaves[/u] which illustrates the importance of proper punctuation (stress) in English. Take the commas out of the title, and you have a completely different phrase.[/QUOTE]

There was a UK tabloid which once did a crass-yet-hilarious riff on that book title ... IIRC an inmate had escaped from a local mental hospital and went on a bit of a bender during which he sexually assaulted a woman at a laundromat, then fled. The tabloid advertised the lurid and shocking news via the headline [i]Nut screws washer and bolts[/i].

Spherical Cow 2020-02-29 23:16

Perhaps this is a good time to review Monty Python's Latin grammar graffiti scene in the Life of Brian, where John Cleese corrects Brian's Latin grammar in some graffiti....Another of my favorites. I seem to have many Monty Python favorites.

Norm

[URL="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3gNdGHsEIk"]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3gNdGHsEIk[/URL]

Dr Sardonicus 2020-03-01 00:05

[QUOTE=ewmayer;538598]There was a UK tabloid which once did a crass-yet-hilarious riff on that book title ... IIRC an inmate had escaped from a local mental hospital and went on a bit of a bender during which he sexually assaulted a woman at a laundromat, then fled. The tabloid advertised the lurid and shocking news via the headline [i]Nut screws washer and bolts[/i].[/QUOTE]That "Nut screws and bolts headline" story goes back a [i]lot[/i] farther than that book. It's been a well-known joke since I was a kid, and probably a lot farther back than that.

A not-unrelated "Truth is stranger than fiction" item:

Title: [u]Theory of screws: a study in the dynamics of a rigid body[/u]
Author: Ball, Sir Robert S. (Robert Stawell) 1840-1913
Published: Dublin, Hodges, Foster, and Co., 1876.

The study of Latin nowadays IMO would be mainly valuable WRT understanding word origins. It is for this reason I regret not having taken Latin when I had the chance.

The study of Latin grammar has the advantage that, Latin being a dead language, its rules of grammar are not going to change.

LaurV 2020-03-05 06:37

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;538456]So is Klingon, for the same reasons.[/QUOTE]
BTW, Duolingo teaches Klingon and High Valyrian, if any of you got strange plans for the future... :smile: (beside of [URL="https://www.duolingo.com/enroll/la/en/Learn-Latin"]Latin[/URL], I mean, which is already quite popular with almost one million learners).

xilman 2020-03-14 21:24

For quite some time now [I]The Times[/I] has been printing a crossword for which all the answers are in Latin. The clues are a curious mix of Latin, English or a mixture of both. They may be either pure definition or of a very mild cryptic form.

Examples from today's are:

21D This, as do all of the others, leads to Rome (3).
11A Triceps apud infernos canis (8)

That pair I solved instantly.

Not yet worked out this one:

22A Wills: non nepos reginae Elizabethae sed "covenants" (10)

Unfortunately "testamentum" has 11 letters. I'll get there in the end.

kladner 2020-03-15 16:12

[QUOTE=LaurV;538932]BTW, Duolingo teaches Klingon and High Valyrian, if any of you got strange plans for the future... :smile: (beside of [URL="https://www.duolingo.com/enroll/la/en/Learn-Latin"]Latin[/URL], I mean, which is already quite popular with almost one million learners).[/QUOTE]
What?! No Elvish?

xilman 2020-03-15 17:53

Meta comment: I am both surprised and pleased at just how many Forumites have a genuine interest in ancient languages and scripts.

It may be premature to suggest that all this material be moved to a sub-forum of Hobbies and threads devoted to Latin, Middle Egyptian, Sumerian and Akkadian be created within it. (Sadly, my knowledge of Ancient Greek, Hittite and Sanskrit is non-existent. Perhaps in a year or two ...)

If created, we could not only encourage others to learn to read the languages we could discuss mathematics as well. The basics of number theory and geometry were established by people who wrote in those languages. Special cases of theorems of Πυθαγόρας and Εὐκλείδης were well known to Egyptians and Babylonians. Babylonian tablets from 2000 BCE give an algorithm for solving quadratic equations.

LaurV 2020-03-16 03:08

[QUOTE=xilman;539785]suggest that all this material be moved to a sub-forum of Hobbies[/QUOTE]
+1. You are supermod, so be my guest to create the structure.

Regarding "lots of ancient languages", my "knowledge" stops at Latin, and even that, the "expertise" is on the "average" level. Romanian is quite similar in grammar and it shares ~80% of the vocabulary, and we also had a full year Latin course in G7, when I was quite found of it, because the school book looked like a "big book of popular wisdom" (they used to teach us that way, and even nowadays, Latin is used mostly for aphorisms and proverbs, many Romanians actually imagine that Latin is not a language, but just a collection of wisdom and funny anecdotes).

But that's where we stop.

Regardless, I would be very found of a "Latin corner", on mersenneforum, of course.

xilman 2020-03-16 15:56

[QUOTE=LaurV;539821]+1. You are supermod, so be my guest to create the structure.
...

Regardless, I would be very found of a "Latin corner", on mersenneforum, of course.[/QUOTE]Another proposal is that it could be a top-level forum within "Extra Stuff".

Related is that the top-level could be something like "Languages: ancient & modern, human and machine". I don't know whether the generality is justified but I do know that generalizing a structure which is a disparate mass of specialisms can be difficult. If it is justified, the Algol68 thread could be moved there as well.

Opinions? Suggestions?

Nick 2020-03-16 17:06

[QUOTE=xilman;539856]Opinions? Suggestions?[/QUOTE]
Good idea.
Chomsky's hierarchy fruitfully migrated from human to machine languages, for example.

pinhodecarlos 2020-06-22 17:48

Amantes da língua latina.

Edit: above the thread subject in my mother tone.

Nick 2020-06-22 21:43

Up until a few centuries ago, Latin was the international scholarly language.
But I doubt that the pronunciation used throughout the centuries was the same as in ancient Rome.
We have the Roman books and statues (which is how we know how to spell Caesar) but no recording of speech or music.

Nick 2020-06-22 22:12

[QUOTE=ewmayer;548816]'veni, vidi, vici'[/QUOTE]
Veni, Vidi, Concucurri. :wink:

ewmayer 2020-06-22 22:23

[QUOTE=Nick;548825]Veni, Vidi, Concucurri. :wink:[/QUOTE]

Or as a certain German leader with Caesarian ambitions might have said when eying a map of France and certain territories ceded to it in 1919, "Veni, Vidi, Vichy."

(Admittedly a pun in poor taste, but we do our best with the material on offer.)

Uncwilly 2020-06-22 22:30

[QUOTE=Nick;548821]But I doubt that the pronunciation used throughout the centuries was the same as in ancient Rome.[/QUOTE]I have been listening to the "History of English" podcast for a while. The presenter shows how for many things we can know how older things were pronounced.

1) Grimm's law shows how consonant sounds change over time.
2) English tends to be amber for other languages' flies. When English borrows (French in particular) words they come in and are fossilized. That is why when English borrows the word again centuries later, it comes in with a different pronunciation.
3) Language family trees that have very similar basic words tend to come from the same root and so the pronunciations are generally well within the Venn diagram.
4) Poetry that has rhyme and assonance point to the sounds of words. If we know that 2 words start with similar sounds, or rhyme that helps.
5) In the UK different scribes spelled the same word different ways and had different systems to show how to say them. When 3 different scribes spell things differently, again we can get a Venn of how it likely was pronounced. Add in the other factors and it tightens the area quite a bit.

Nick 2020-06-23 09:31

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;548829]The presenter shows how for many things we can know how older things were pronounced.[/QUOTE]
Yes, some good points there.
The position a mere 130 years ago is summarized here:

[URL]http://www.gutenberg.org/files/28994/28994-h/28994-h.htm[/URL]

xilman 2020-06-23 15:01

[QUOTE=ewmayer;548816]a factor of 10 - Additive, multiplicative, logarithmic, what? And which factor of 10, 2 or 5?



My webpage on the history and various useful applications of what is these days commonly known as the [url=http://mersenneforum.org/mayer/nr.html]Newton-Raphson iterative-approximation method[/url] notes this re. the ancient Babylonians:


Getting back to the Latin, I came across a useful phrase recently in the context of one of the Sopabox threads: "Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi." I believe Orwell's version of the concept was "some animals are more equal than others." Paul, help me out - is the c in 'licet' pronounced like the one in 'license' or like the ch in linchpin'? And the pronunciation is the same as in 'vici'? (E.g. J. Caeser's famous 'veni, vidi, vici'.)[/QUOTE]After your needlessly obtuseness summarized by yout first question, I feel disinclined to give you a straight answer to your final question. You bloody well know that I meant that, IMO, at least 100 people alive today can read the language.

I'm feeling generous. The evidence is overwhelmingly in favour that Brutus, his friends, Romans and countrymen would have pronounced it with a hard second consonant and two short vowels as in "lick-ett". Softening the c before e and I came much later.

Have you read "1066 And All That"? I guess not, otherwise you would be familiar with the "Weeny, Weedy, Weaky" joke.

xilman 2020-06-23 15:09

[QUOTE=Nick;548821]Up until a few centuries ago, Latin was the international scholarly language.
But I doubt that the pronunciation used throughout the centuries was the same as in ancient Rome.
We have the Roman books and statues (which is how we know how to spell Caesar) but no recording of speech or music.[/QUOTE]What we do have is the descendants of Latin words in many other languages, we have transliterations of Latin words into other languages and those of other languages into Latin.

For instance, the three-headed guardian of Hades, is called Cerberus in Latin. The original Greek began with a kappa, not a sigma. Another example is Caesar, which survives as Kaiser and Czar (or Tsar), again suggesting a hard consonantal c.

These are just two examples of many, chosen because they will be familiar to most modern readers.

You are quite right in that pronunciation changed. The c softened after e and I some centuries after the classical period.

xilman 2020-06-23 15:14

[QUOTE=ewmayer;548816]My webpage on the history and various useful applications of what is these days commonly known as the [url=http://mersenneforum.org/mayer/nr.html]Newton-Raphson iterative-approximation method[/url] notes this re. the ancient Babylonians:[/QUOTE]Perhaps it is now time to reconsider the proposal made in post #42 in this thread.

storm5510 2020-06-23 15:24

Not long ago when doctors still used prescription pads, it amazed me how anyone could read the Latin scribbles they would write. Pharmacists had no problems reading them either. It was a dialect only they could understand.

Batalov 2020-09-28 18:19

A certain scientific confererence set up the abstract template and instead of the usual latin placeholder ([I]Lorem Ipsum Dolor Sit Amet[/I] etc) they used:
[QUOTE][B]Abstract Upload Example[/B]

Title of Abstract
John Smith[SUP]1[/SUP], Pat West[SUP]2[/SUP], Sarah Johnson[SUP]3[/SUP]

School ABC
Company XYZ
Institution PQW

Catullus in California Monterey Cannery Row, fetor, stridorem, qualitatem lucis tonum habitum desiderio intellexit quod esset somnium. Cannery ordo congregati et dispersi sunt, et rubigo, et stannum, et ferrum, lignum et ficum, et concisa et in alga, opus sortem et junk in tumulos, sardini canneries de CONRUGIS ferrum, Tonks, restaurants, et domum meretricis, et minus frequenti groceries, et laboratories et flop domos. Et habitatores ejus sunt quasi vir quondam, meretricum lenonumque flagitia, aleatores, lunamque et filii, quibus quisque vellet. Aspiciunt ac si per alium puteum potuisse aspexit: et sanctorum martyrum et sanctorum angelorum et hominum, et tamen hoc intelligitur.[/QUOTE]

A bold passage including pimps and prostitutes, among others. Quirky!

LaurV 2020-09-29 07:25

Haha, brilliant, I almost can understand that, but I put it in google translate anyhow, to be sure I'm not dreaming.

Uncwilly 2020-09-29 13:39

We need a scandal involving Latin, that way the media can call it: [SPOILER]Vulgate[/SPOILER]


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