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mfgoode 2007-03-28 18:03

Life after Death!
 
Jasong started his offended God Thread with
[QUOTE= jasong]First, let me say I'm posting this to get input from the forum in general, Christians and non-Christians.[/Quote]

:sad:

Frankly I'm pissed off by that thread as it is full off 'You said', 'he said' and 'I said' which got nowhere and did no one any good.

Rather than continue it I have branched out into this thread.

Please let me know your thoughts if there is or you believe in life after death or not! This is not confined to Christians, or Non Christians.

It is open to atheists, agnostics, Grand Design people, yes Christians and non,
evolutionists, Mormons and the likes.

Please restrict it to your beliefs and the reason why you believe it to be so.
You can give references if you like but a simple 'I believe in Buddha as I am a follower of Dalai Lama' will do. An elaboration of your beliefs and what makes you believe such and such and what the Lama says will be helpful.

Kindly avoid nit picking in your arguments against one another.

The intention is to broaden our beliefs as brothers and not as enemies if someone's logic is alien to us.

The World is big enough to habitate all of us peacefully.

This is important as when death comes will one switch to other doctrines or be true to what we thought all along ? Think about it !

The ball is now in your court !.

Mally :coffee:

kuratkull 2007-03-28 18:21

I believe chemistry, biology and physics run our universe. By dieing people mean the death of the physical body and the end of the chemical processes in it, so we all are nothing more than just a bunch of chemistry :)
So, when a person dies, he dies, there's no afterlife or anything like that. Some may think that we are special and that some kind of [I]souls[/I] must be driving us... but that's beyond physics(metaphysics), so it's crapzor :)

We born, we live, we die...

EDIT: [url]http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-7044753105944203252&hl=en[/url]
It's "must watch!"
Explains how EVERYTHING got started; who, why and how created us or how we became created. It's also featured on Digg.com ATM, so it must be good.
EDIT2(for the ones lookign at the video): The "Game of Life" can be played here: [url]http://www.ibiblio.org/lifepatterns/[/url]

ET_ 2007-03-28 18:57

Is there life after death?

Well, at first you should define life...

If life is the ability to reproduce genes, then bacteria and viruses (vira?) are alive, and so is the DNA present in our cells, eaten by insects.

If life is self-consciousness, then we should before teach ourselves how to recognize (lack of) self-consciousness in animals: as Stanislaw Lem pointed out, our consciousness is given us by our senses (the door to the brain), and we just can't imagine how perception could be if our senses were diffeerent (think of a blind-born person and explain him/her the vision).

For the very same reason, we could not understand, not even realize thoughts from evenctual aliens having different senses than ours, as we cannot understand how a cuttlefish perceives the polarized light (Richard Dawking); let alone their lives.

If life is autoproducing and/or transforming energy, then our sun and the stars are alive. Is it a conscious process? We just can't tell, because our senses are limited to our environment.

There is a small but still existent possibility that life is just an accident of the Nature happened on Earth. Wouldn't it be fun if that "accident" (us) asked to himself "is there life after death?"

I could go on and on... but stop here instead.

In my opinion, the question has not the canonical (mathematical) correctness, because the hypothesis lacks rigour.

Luigi :popcorn:

cheesehead 2007-03-28 19:25

kuratkull,

I basically agree with you about the chemistry, biology and physics. A way I'd say it is that the natural universe consists of what exists other than as ideas in human minds; there are many things, beings, and forces alleged by some people to exist, but if they cannot be shown to exist in nature, they are classified as [I]supernatural[/I]. Part of the history of science is determining which of the many things, beings, and forces claimed to exist are natural; those which cannot be scientifically shown to be natural are [I]supernatural[/I]. (Then there is a large category of things, beings, and forces which cannot yet be, or have not yet been, classified either way.)

An important aspect of science that is hardly ever emphasized as much as I think it deserves to be is that science includes methods of avoiding self-deception (and other-deception). This is especially important when considering things which people have a strong desire to be true [I]regardless[/I] of scientific (non-deceptive) reality, such as "life after death".

My preceding statements are unclear as to the nature of human ideas themselves. It can be shown that human thoughts/ideas correspond to measurable physical events in human brains, and thus are natural in that regard, but the [I]referents[/I] (that which are denoted by the thoughts/ideas) do not necessarily exist in nature.

"Life after death" really needs to be further defined in detail in order to properly classify it. In what I think is the sense Mally intended it and the usual conversational sense, it is a real (natural-world) idea, or set of ideas, that refers to something that does not exist in nature.

[quote]so we all are nothing more than just a bunch of chemistry[/quote]"Nothing more" is an enormous amount indeed! And part of that enormous amount is relevant to the topic of "life after death".

In addition to the question of whether an idea corresponds to something in nature is a separate, related question of what causes many people to think that some things exist in nature even though it has been or can be scientifically determined that those things are supernatural. This is where psychology comes in, and the second question may be more important than the first.

What causes so many people to believe in "life after death"? The idea itself is real, and is extremely influential and important because people have such a strong desire for it to refer to a real phenomenon, a desire seldom affected by presence or absence of non-deceptive proof. Indeed, that desire is so strong that it can override almost any other desire in some people. To me, [I]that[/I] is the importance of discussing "life after death".

retina 2007-03-29 11:34

To me, death means the ceasing of chemical processes in the body to keep it in a desired state, thus giving over the the beginning of decline into less desired states such as decomposition and decay. Once death occurs then brain activity is halted and the person(ality) is no longer. I fail to believe that anything else (like a soul) is involved due to lack of any solid evidence.

"Nature" has had a long time to come up with a design that can self replicate and progress itself to higher levels of organisation. This might be likened to a standard computer that you see in front of you. When it is turned on and has power applied it produces organised results. Once the power is removed or something goes faulty the results are no longer to our liking and we take corrective action to restore or replace.

Of course nature has had a considerable head start (~4GY) on the computer, but project the computer (and/or robots) forward a few thousand (or whatever figure you feel more comfortable with) years and you might just get a self replicating "thing" with ideas and opinions of it's own. I wonder if people will call that life? And if they do, will they think it can also have life after it's death? If we write the "things" a nice shiny book with many nice stories about how to be good and offering life after irrepairable component failure then the "things" may also start to believe in life after death.

Xyzzy 2007-03-29 12:39

Picture yourself as a miserable serf during the middle ages. Your life sucks in ways we can't possibly imagine. You are born, you work and are miserable your whole life, and then you die.

Who would put up with that? Nobody, right?

Unless...

Someone, somewhere, said:

Hey, life sucks. It makes you a better person. But, if you are obedient and go to church and all that, you will live [B]forever[/B] in blissful happiness in Heaven.

So now life isn't so bad. You put your plans of overthrowing the ruling class aside. All you have to do is be a "sheeple" and just follow the rules. Because 40 years of misery on Earth now is a drop in the ocean compared to [B]forever[/B] in Heaven. (And Hell is so very scary!)

Nice scam, for the ruling class and the corrupt clergy, who most likely know better.

:sad:

mfgoode 2007-03-29 16:10

The Beast!
 
[QUOTE=Xyzzy;102384]
B]forever[/B] in Heaven. (And Hell is so very scary!)

:sad:[/QUOTE]

:wink:

It sure is Mike! your number of posts has reached the number of the Beast

666 !

Mally :coffee:

kuratkull 2007-03-29 18:15

Xyzzy's postcount is a static number.

petrw1 2007-03-29 22:34

IN MY HUMBLE OPINION:

I want to believe that there is live after death. I think it would be a shame to consider that, assuming I live for 80 years that I will have been a part of the earth for 1/50,000,000th of it's 4 Billion years ... much, much worse than the odds of finding a 10 Million Digit Mersenne Prime :sad:

I have had my share of sad time and my share of great times on this life so far and I would love to do it again whether it is shortly after I die or 1,000,000 years later before it is my turn again.

I know a few people (all close to me and credible) that have claimed to have seen "ghosts". Are these "life-after-death" people living in another "dimension"? Who knows?

As for the "Heavenly" life after death: I am of a faith that believes in such and I personally want to believe it too. Honestly, I am about 75% a believer and the other 25% I leave to my faith.

I believe, that considering the complexity of "life forms" on this planet, including humans (note I do not say "especially humans", because in some ways other life forms do some pretty remarkable things and have survived on this planet much longer than we have) I refuse to believe it was created by a big bang, a chemical soup, random events, luck or chance even over billions of years.

If you search the Internet for "Intelligent Design" you will find many hits that sound pretty convincing to me.

mfgoode 2007-03-30 16:54

[QUOTE=ET_;102327]Is there life after death?

Well, at first you should define life...

If life is the ability to reproduce genes, then bacteria and viruses (vira?) are alive, and so is the DNA present in our cells, eaten by insects.

If life is self-consciousness, then we should before teach ourselves how to recognize (lack of) self-consciousness in animals: as Stanislaw Lem pointed out, our consciousness is given us by our senses (the door to the brain), and we just can't imagine how perception could be if our senses were diffeerent (think of a blind-born person and explain him/her the vision).

For the very same reason, we could not understand, not even realize thoughts from evenctual aliens having different senses than ours, as we cannot understand how a cuttlefish perceives the polarized light (Richard Dawking); let alone their lives.

If life is autoproducing and/or transforming energy, then our sun and the stars are alive. Is it a conscious process? We just can't tell, because our senses are limited to our environment.

There is a small but still existent possibility that life is just an accident of the Nature happened on Earth. Wouldn't it be fun if that "accident" (us) asked to himself "is there life after death?"

I could go on and on... but stop here instead.

In my opinion, the question has not the canonical (mathematical) correctness, because the hypothesis lacks rigour.

Luigi :popcorn:[/QUOTE]

:unsure:

Well to define life I would say that its is the sum total of subtle energy which we have been unable to measure or detect as yet.

As it is a form of energy it can neither be created or destroyed. It merely is transformed from one state to the other.

Death is the cessation of life in all its chemical, biological, physical etc processes. For instance every time you breathe in you are breathing life. Every time you breathe out you are dying.

Life is not a static phenomenon. It is a cyclic rhythm of breath.

If all the physical processes cease, where has the energy it had during life gone?

Mally :coffee:

ET_ 2007-03-30 17:34

[QUOTE=mfgoode;102523]:unsure:

Well to define life I would say that its is the sum total of subtle energy which we have been unable to measure or detect as yet.

As it is a form of energy it can neither be created or destroyed. It merely is transformed from one state to the other.

Death is the cessation of life in all its chemical, biological, physical etc processes. For instance every time you breathe in you are breathing life. Every time you breathe out you are dying.

Life is not a static phenomenon. It is a cyclic rhythm of breath.

If all the physical processes cease, where has the energy it had during life gone?

Mally :coffee:[/QUOTE]

Enthropy?

Luigi


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