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-   -   Should there be a right to end one's life? (https://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=24746)

Dr Sardonicus 2019-09-10 03:31

[QUOTE=Kebbaj;525587]The problem does not arise on the term of law. because once dead the right we do not care !!
<snip>[/quote]
Of course, a suicide, being dead, has no legal liability. However, anyone else who may have [i]urged[/i] or [i]assisted[/i] the suicide could face felony charges. That is an issue dealt with in "medical aid in dying" laws allowing terminally ill patients with a short (6 month) prognosis to obtain lethal prescriptions without the doctor facing prosecution for assisting a suicide.
[quote]who came to life by his own choice?
........!![/QUOTE]
You might be in for a shock if you look up the term antinatalism (or anti-natalism).

retina 2019-09-10 03:37

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;525593]So, you are ok with someone offing themselves because of bad medication. What is to stop a "Doctor of Death" from prescribing the one medication (with the highest probability of side effects) from a suite that are all suitable for use for a condition? Would that be right for the Dr. to do (actively attempting to help people unwitting to shuffle off this mortal coil)?[/QUOTE]Firstly, I think it is an American thing (or maybe a Western thing, I'm not sure) to think that everything can be solved with some magic chemicals.

Everything they choose leads up to the decision point. If someone is willing to blindly trust some doc to solve whatever problem with drugs then they have to deal with the consequences of their misplaced trust.

I don't see why you keep trying to make arbitrary exceptions to allow you to interfere. Let people make up their own minds. If they make a bad choice and don't bother to check what their meds will do the that is their own concern.

Uncwilly 2019-09-10 04:43

[QUOTE=retina;525601]I don't see why you keep trying to make arbitrary exceptions to allow you to interfere. Let people make up their own minds. If they make a bad choice and don't bother to check what their meds will do the that is their own concern.[/QUOTE]
Does this go for minors that can execute on suicidal thoughts but not give full consent to which medications?

Frequently the choice is medication or death (or other severe outcome.) So opting not to receive treatment is a choice for death. So a person not opting for that is making an affirmative choice (or if they are unable, their medical proxy) to remain alive. So any suicidal side effect of the medication is counter to a rational choice.

Either you enjoy being the devil's advocate, or you have a very bleak outlook (or both).

S485122 2019-09-10 05:15

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;525603]...
Frequently the choice is medication or death (or other severe outcome.)
...[/QUOTE]When doctors prescribe a treatment with severe side-effects, they should ensure that the side-effects are provided for, this is obvious in the case of induced come for instance. Why isn't it also obvious if the effects are psychic ? The medical staff should provide for the temporary delusions induced by the treatment they provide.[QUOTE=Uncwilly;525603]
...
a rational choice.
...[/QUOTE]Human beings are not often rational, certainly not when taking "important" decisions. I think there are at least two references cited on this very forum : one about buying a car, the other about trading in what the stock market has to offer. And, after all, rationality is not an absolute : what one person finds rational might be considered irrational by another.

Jacob

retina 2019-09-10 05:29

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;525603]Does this go for minors that can execute on suicidal thoughts but not give full consent to which medications?

Frequently the choice is medication or death (or other severe outcome.) So opting not to receive treatment is a choice for death. So a person not opting for that is making an affirmative choice (or if they are unable, their medical proxy) to remain alive. So any suicidal side effect of the medication is counter to a rational choice.[/QUOTE]I'll take your word for it that there are meds that if not taken will cause the patient to die, and if taken will cause the patient to want to die. Well so be it, you die one way or the other. If it was me I'd just choose to least painful way, my choice, my outcome. Gotta die of something. Let people make their own choices.

Patient X: Waah, these meds make me want to kill myself
Me: Okay. But why tell me? Just do it and stop whining.
Patient X: I was hoping someone would help me.
Me: I'll call Uncwilly for you, okay? He'll strap you in tight so you can't move.
Patient X: Umm ... not sure if that is better or not.[QUOTE=Uncwilly;525603]Either you enjoy being the devil's advocate, or you have a very bleak outlook (or both).[/QUOTE]I certainly enjoy being a devils advocate. But these posts here are my actual thoughts.

Dr Sardonicus 2019-09-10 12:00

[QUOTE=retina;525601]<snip>
If someone is willing to blindly trust some doc to solve whatever problem with drugs then they have to deal with the consequences of their misplaced trust.

I don't see why you keep trying to make arbitrary exceptions to allow you to interfere. Let people make up their own minds. If they make a bad choice and don't bother to check what their meds will do the that is their own concern.[/QUOTE]If you dismiss someone consulting an actual physician as "willing to blindly trust some doc" then what source would be more reliable? What source [i]should[/i] they blindly trust to "check what their meds will do" -- the company that [i]makes[/i] the drug? A Christian Science web site, perhaps? Someone that says you should drink bleach to cure what ails you?

Nowadays, even drug [i]ads[/i] here in the good ol' USA mention possible "side effects" -- which "may include" suicidal thoughts or actions, sleepwalking, hallucinations (seeing talking bees with big blue eyes, or animated or anthropomorphized human organs), turning into a golden labrador retriever, etc.

It [i]would[/i] be a good idea to check on [i]the doctor[/i] -- see if there have been any complaints or lawsuits, that sort of thing. Similar to what you might do if you need to hire a roofer or a plumber.

The OP to this thread mentions those who want to take others with them when they go. Don't worry about a thing! [url=https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/white-house-considers-controversial-plan-on-mental-illness-and-mass-shooting/2019/09/09/eb58b6f6-ce72-11e9-87fa-8501a456c003_story.html?noredirect=on]White House weighs controversial plan on mental illness and mass shootings[/url]

[quote]Former NBC chairman Bob Wright, a longtime friend and associate of President Trump’s, has briefed top officials, including the president, the vice president and Ivanka Trump, on a proposal to create a new research arm called the Health Advanced Research Projects Agency (HARPA) to come up with out-of-the-box ways to tackle health problems, much like the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) does for the military, according to several people who have been briefed.

After the recent shootings in El Paso and Dayton, Ohio, Ivanka Trump asked those advocating for the new agency whether it could produce new approaches to stopping mass shootings, said one person familiar with the conversations who spoke on the condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to discuss them.

Advisers to Wright quickly pulled together a three-page proposal — called SAFEHOME for Stopping Aberrant Fatal Events by Helping Overcome Mental Extremes — which calls for exploring whether technology including phones and smartwatches can be used to detect when mentally ill people are about to turn violent.[/quote]

retina 2019-09-10 12:24

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;525622]If you dismiss someone consulting an actual physician as "willing to blindly trust some doc" then what source would be more reliable? What source [i]should[/i] they blindly trust to "check what their meds will do" -- the company that [i]makes[/i] the drug? A Christian Science web site, perhaps? Someone that says you should drink bleach to cure what ails you?[/QUOTE]Learn to do some research (not you, the patient) of their own. Most western docs seem to only care about how much money they can make from prescribing expensive drugs. Most Eastern docs seem to only care about treatments that do nothing but make you [i]feel[/i] like you are doing something. There are of course exceptions. Find those exceptions and talk to them. Do your own research also. Ask more docs. Do more research. Ask others that have also done their own research. With a search engine and a telephone it shouldn't take more than a few hours, maybe a day, to get a good idea about things.

Have you heard about the ketogenic diets and how it helps cure childhood epilepsy? No. Most people haven't, and most docs also haven't. Most docs are more than happy to prescribe various top-dollar drugs to try and manage the problem. The drugs usually don't solve anything, they just make people [i]feel[/i] like they are trying their best. But very few docs even know, let alone recommend, that a simple diet change can solve the problem in about 1/3rd of cases. A success rate much higher than [i]any[/i] known drug or combination of drugs. So why don't they recommend the most successful treatment? Money. They can't get kickbacks from telling people to eat differently. And lack of caring. They learned in med school some things, and many won't bother to learn anything more for the rest of their careers.

So, yes, do your own research. Don't blindly trust a doc (or anyone) just because (s)he has some qualifications.

Dr Sardonicus 2019-09-10 14:03

[QUOTE=retina;525624]Have you heard about the ketogenic diets and how it helps cure childhood epilepsy? No. Most people haven't, and most docs also haven't.[/QUOTE]Actually, I have. "Keto" diets are usually touted as weight-loss diets (The Atkins diet fad is a case in point), but I did some digging after seeing some recent promotions, and found that keto diets have long been known to control childhood epilepsy.

So, why are keto diets -- along with pricey prepared keto foods -- heavily promoted for weight loss? I would say money.

retina 2019-09-10 14:17

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;525627]... but I did some digging after seeing some recent promotions, and found that keto diets have long been known to control childhood epilepsy.[/QUOTE]Yes, It isn't a secret. But asking most docs you'd think it doesn't exist.[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;525627]So, why are keto diets -- along with pricey prepared keto foods -- heavily promoted for weight loss? I would say money.[/QUOTE]A good place to get deeply biased advice is places that sell the same stuff they are making claims about. But I wasn't suggesting ketogenic diets for weight loss.

Kebbaj 2019-09-11 06:54

[QUOTE=retina;525624]Learn to do some research (not you, the patient) of their own. Most western docs seem to only care about how much money they can make from prescribing expensive drugs. Most Eastern docs seem to only care about treatments that do nothing but make you [i]feel[/i] like you are doing something. There are of course exceptions. Find those exceptions and talk to them. Do your own research also. Ask more docs. Do more research. Ask others that have also done their own research. With a search engine and a telephone it shouldn't take more than a few hours, maybe a day, to get a good idea about things.

Have you heard about the ketogenic diets and how it helps cure childhood epilepsy? No. Most people haven't, and most docs also haven't. Most docs are more than happy to prescribe various top-dollar drugs to try and manage the problem. The drugs usually don't solve anything, they just make people [i]feel[/i] like they are trying their best. But very few docs even know, let alone recommend, that a simple diet change can solve the problem in about 1/3rd of cases. A success rate much higher than [i]any[/i] known drug or combination of drugs. So why don't they recommend the most successful treatment? Money. They can't get kickbacks from telling people to eat differently. And lack of caring. They learned in med school some things, and many won't bother to learn anything more for the rest of their careers.

So, yes, do your own research. Don't blindly trust a doc (or anyone) just because (s)he has some qualifications.[/QUOTE]

very good advise. The patient must be treated before treating the disease. and the best doctor is either.


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