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-   -   Should there be a right to end one's life? (https://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=24746)

retina 2019-09-09 06:09

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;525545]Why the arbitrary threshold of ease? You say go for it, but you seem to be saying that firearms puts the bar too low. If you think that it should be fully allowed, why restrict the means?[/QUOTE]Because a firearm is too easy to harm others (I said that in the sentence you quoted). We have seen that happen many times.

Jumping off a bridge, taking pills, self hanging, etc. doesn't harm others (except the emotional side of things) and they are simple to arrange for anyone suitably able and motivated.

[size=1]Just to be clear. If there were some magic spell that only enabled people to use guns to harm themselves and no one else, then I would be all for everyone to own as many guns as they please. But until that magic happens the risk of harm to others is too great to allow any random d*ckh**d to have a gun.[/size]

kladner 2019-09-09 06:59

[QUOTE=retina;525546]Because a [U]firearm is too easy to harm others[SIZE=4][COLOR=Red]*[/COLOR][/SIZE]. [/U]We have seen that happen many times.

Jumping off a bridge, taking pills, self hanging, etc. doesn't harm others (except the emotional side of things) and they are simple to arrange for anyone suitably able and motivated.[/QUOTE]
But don't leap in front of trains, buses, cars, or anything else with a (an?) human operator. Don't get all suicidal and stuff when there are others in the vehicle which you are controlling.

[SIZE=4][COLOR=Red]*[COLOR=Black] [SIZE=2]It is also easier to harm oneself[/SIZE][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=4][COLOR=Red][COLOR=Black][SIZE=2] in [/SIZE][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=2][COLOR=Red][COLOR=Black]a moment of anguish[/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=4][COLOR=Red][COLOR=Black][SIZE=2] which might diminish[/SIZE][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=4][COLOR=Red][COLOR=Black][SIZE=2] if the means of instantaneous self-termination were not so copiously available. Jumping, hanging, OD-ing all require some premeditation [U][I]and[/I][/U] preparation to carry out.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE][SIZE=4][COLOR=Red][COLOR=Black][SIZE=2]
[/SIZE][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE]
[SIZE=4][COLOR=Red][COLOR=Black][SIZE=2]I support the choice to die. I also think that the choice [U][I]ideally[/I][/U] might be based on reflection and counseling, not impulse.
[/SIZE][/COLOR][/COLOR][/SIZE]

retina 2019-09-09 07:08

[QUOTE=kladner;525548]But don't leap in front of trains, buses, cars, or anything else with a (an?) human operator. Don't get all suicidal and stuff when there are others in the vehicle which you are controlling.[/QUOTE]Yes, I agree. But that is up to the person involved. However the difference here is the those devices/vehicles have uses that are considerably positive in most circumstances. The only reason guns exist is to cause harm (I don't buy the "defence" argument at all).

kladner 2019-09-09 07:59

[QUOTE=retina;525550]Yes, I agree. But that is up to the person involved. However the difference here is the those devices/vehicles have uses that are considerably positive in most circumstances. The only reason guns exist is to cause harm (I don't buy the "defence" argument at all).[/QUOTE]
True on all points. Firearms are killing devices. Those who keep them stand a fair chance of being the victims of their own weapons, so protection is a very shaky proposition. Besides that, their toddlers may shoot each other, though this may be Natural Selection at work.

Dr Sardonicus 2019-09-09 12:55

[QUOTE=retina;525540]<snip>
Why would you poke your nose into someone else's business? If they want to go then that is their choice.

The only time I would think that is justified in interfering is when they try to take others with them. Otherwise go for it.[/quote]I have read of cases where "jumpers" have been urged to "go for it" by onlookers. If you happened to see someone threatening to jump, would you egg them on? Walk away because it's "nothing to do with me"? What would you do if it was a friend?

I am sure there are those who would lament the fact that "nosy" friends acted to prevent a potential suicide in the following instance, but I am not among them.

[url=https://www.smithsonianmag.com/history/did-abraham-lincolns-bromance-alter-course-american-history-180962203/]The True Friendship That Saved Abraham Lincoln’s Life[/url]
[quote]But in a move that has baffled historians, Lincoln broke off the engagement in late December 1840 and fell into a suicidal depression. Bedridden, he was prone to hallucinations, and his friends were worried enough to hide his razor. He was, in the words of his friend, future law partner, and eventual biographer William H. Herndon, “crazy as a loon.”[/quote]

[quote=retina;525540]This reminds me of the sodomy and homosexual laws (current and old). They are basically the "I don't like it" laws. A bunch of nosey people trying to stop others because they don't like it.[/QUOTE]
So, if you knew someone who was driven to despair by the impact of such a law, would you stand idly by if you thought they might be contemplating suicide?

retina 2019-09-09 13:13

[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;525574]I have read of cases where "jumpers" have been urged to "go for it" by onlookers. If you happened to see someone threatening to jump, would you egg them on? Walk away because it's "nothing to do with me"? What would you do if it was a friend?[/QUOTE]I don't know what I would do. But I do think that if someone is still standing on the edge and hasn't yet jumped then I question their dedication to the task. Why make such a big thing of it, right? Just climb over and start falling, shouldn't be that difficult. So those people [i]don't[/i] actually want to end it all, they want someone to stop them. The "cry for help" thing.[QUOTE=Dr Sardonicus;525574]So, if you knew someone who was driven to despair by the impact of such a law, would you stand idly by if you thought they might be contemplating suicide?[/QUOTE]Once again I don't know what I would do. I think such laws are overbearing and stupid anyway. And if it was me in that situation, then I'd just hide my "shame" instead of letting those intolerant busybodies get their way.

Uncwilly 2019-09-09 15:31

Retina, some medications have a side effect of suicidal ideation. Remove the medication and the evil thoughts go away. Shouldn't that person be protected long enough for the problem to be determined and addressed? Also, some diseases (like sepsis) cause temporary periods where people don't have their full faculties. Again, this is a temporary condition. Shouldn't these persons be protected? Hospital staff use restraints in this situation and even medication. Are you suggesting that they should be allowed to terminate themselves, even though this is a passing abnormal condition?

Dr Sardonicus 2019-09-09 17:50

Speaking of not making it too easy: The "suicide clause" in life insurance policies excludes payment of benefits for death by suicide, for a fixed period of time (usually two years) after the policy is issued. This is to prevent someone intent on suicide buying a policy on their way out, simply as a means to settle their debts or to provide for their families.
[QUOTE=Uncwilly;525581]Retina, some medications have a side effect of suicidal ideation.
<snip>[/QUOTE]
It would seem that a case in point would be Alan Turing. He agreed to "chemical castration" -- injections of estrogen (DES) to curb his libido, as an alternative to incarceration for "gross indecency." Unfortunately, in addition to making him grow breasts and sapping his energy, the treatment subjected him to extreme mood swings. On one of the "down" swings, he committed suicide.

Kebbaj 2019-09-09 18:44

[QUOTE=Fusion_power;524929]I'd like to pose a question that is at least somewhat relevant in [URL="https://mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=17562"]this thread[/URL]. Do you support the concept of suicide being an individual right? [/QUOTE]

The problem does not arise on the term of law. because once dead the right we do not care !!
the problem arises in terms of respect for others. I respect the person and his choice but I totally disapprove the act!
For me, our body is not our property, we rent it to life to generate other lives,
or simply love another life.

who came to life by his own choice?
........!!

retina 2019-09-09 22:35

[QUOTE=Uncwilly;525581]Retina, some medications have a side effect of suicidal ideation. Remove the medication and the evil thoughts go away. Shouldn't that person be protected long enough for the problem to be determined and addressed? Also, some diseases (like sepsis) cause temporary periods where people don't have their full faculties. Again, this is a temporary condition. Shouldn't these persons be protected? Hospital staff use restraints in this situation and even medication. Are you suggesting that they should be allowed to terminate themselves, even though this is a passing abnormal condition?[/QUOTE]I'm fairly sure I've already answered this above. If someone wants to jump then let them jump. We have exponential population growth, you want to use force to make that worse for everyone?

Uncwilly 2019-09-09 23:09

[QUOTE=retina;525592]I'm fairly sure I've already answered this above. If someone wants to jump then let them jump. We have exponential population growth, you want to use force to make that worse for everyone?[/QUOTE]So, you are ok with someone offing themselves because of bad medication. What is to stop a "Doctor of Death" from prescribing the one medication (with the highest probability of side effects) from a suite that are all suitable for use for a condition? Would that be right for the Dr. to do (actively attempting to help people unwitting to shuffle off this mortal coil)?

If the person is not in their right mind and they would not kill themselves while sane and not under duress, then why should we let them 'accidentally' as it were kill themselves while in a compromised state?


I have already said my piece about the overpopulation issue, elsewhere in this forum. You appear to be leaning toward culling every 10th kid that starts grade 1.


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