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 andi314 2003-12-21 10:57

primility testing

I hope somebody can help me:

I have a number ( approx. 15-20 digits) and i try to trial factor it to p(1000)=7919
and start afterwards a fermat test ( a^p mod p=a) with the bases a=2,3,5,7.

Can i then say that the tested number is prime???

 michael 2003-12-21 12:11

No, you can't, but you have a pretty good assumption.
If you want to use Fermat's little theorem as a primality test for a number p you must test all prime exponents smaller than p-1.
Pseudoprimes for each base aren't very rare, but combinations of a few bases (4 like you did) gives you a good idea...

-michael

 andi314 2003-12-21 12:18

i thought that carmichael numbers are really rare and can be excluded by doing a little trail factoring.

 michael 2003-12-21 12:27

They are not very frequent, but there are still enough to not be sure about the primality of a number...
If i'm correct there are 3 numbers smaller than 100.000 that pass fermat's little theorem for base 2,3,5 and 7 that are composite:
29341 = 13x37x61
46657 = 13x37x97
75361 = 11x13x17x31

-michael

 andi314 2003-12-21 20:49

but these numbers are eliminated by trial factoring up to 7000!!!

 michael 2003-12-21 20:54

But these numbers are only 5 digits too, i wouldn't know how big the factors could become for 15-20 digit carmichael numbers...

-michael

 michael 2003-12-21 21:10

721801 = 601x1201, that's already a little bigger, let's see if i can find some pseudoprimes to base 2,3,5,7 with only factors bigger than 7000...

Also:

A number n is a pseudoprime to the base b if b^n-1 is congruent to 1 modulo n.

A Carmichael number is a composite number n such that b^n-1 is congruent to 1 modulo n for every b that is relatively prime to n.

So we are talking about composite numbers that are pseudoprime to bases 2,3,5 and 7 ... this are not necessarily Carmichael numbers.

-michael

Re: primility testing

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by andi314 [/i]
[B]Can i then say that the tested number is prime
...
i thought that carmichael numbers are really rare and can be excluded by doing a little trail factoring.
...
but these numbers are eliminated by trial factoring up to 7000!!!???[/B][/QUOTE]
There is a big mathematical difference between a statement that can be proved to be true and a statement that is true 99.9999...% of the time [i]but sometimes, even if very rarely, is false.[/i].

If one claims, or wants to say, simply that "[a certain number] is prime", that implies that it can be proven, absolutely and without any possible doubt, that the number is 100% definitely a prime number.

If, instead, one is referring to a number which has been proven by trial factoring to have no factors smaller than some limit (e.g., 7000 or even 7 trillion) and, in addition, passes the Fermat pseudoprime test for 4 (or even 4000) different prime bases, then one can correctly say that the number is a [b]probable[/b] prime, but one [i]cannot[/i] correctly say that the number is a "prime" [i]with no qualifying adjective ahead of the word "prime"[/i]. So it's always necessary to refer to the latter example as a "probable prime" or "pseudoprime".

 andi314 2003-12-22 09:42

so which other methods could i use to determine that a number is 100% prime???

 smh 2003-12-22 12:49

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by andi314 [/i]
[B]so which other methods could i use to determine that a number is 100% prime??? [/B][/QUOTE]

Try [url]http://www.alpertron.com.ar/ECM.HTM[/url]

 andi314 2003-12-22 13:23

but i want to implement this methods in a program so i cant use a webpage!!

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