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-   -   The official 15kSearch forum is moving (https://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=4884)

L9_ 2005-10-25 11:24

The official 15kSearch forum is moving
 
The new forum is located here:
[url]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/15kSearch/[/url]
///Under re-construction///

Q. What does this mean for this forum?
A. This forum may continue as it is, and it has the permission of the project's leader. It's not expected that everyone, will want to visit a new forum.

Moderators can join the group, and continue as moderators at the new forum, if desired.

Kosmaj 2005-10-25 11:54

[B]Shane[/B]

FYI, I'm not going anywhere.

thommy 2005-10-25 12:12

This forum is much better, because of the thread structure...all replys on one site and so on... and having 2 forums will lead into confusion...

Jwb52z 2005-10-25 14:11

This does not sound like an official move and I will only announce it on the DC info forum site if the project leader specifically comes forward and says so.

L9_ 2005-10-25 21:58

[QUOTE]I will only announce it on the DC info forum site if the project leader specifically comes forward and says so.[/QUOTE]

The project leader has come forward, and sent you a message at your site, verifying his identity. Please change the link.

Jwb52z 2005-10-25 23:48

I sent the notice to Kirk who does the actual site changes by hand. He'll get to it as soon as he can.

Kosmaj 2005-10-26 02:58

[b]
Me, and I beleive a great majority of serious 15k crunchers are staying here and will continue the projects underway.

Our site is [URL=http://www.15k.org]www.15k.org[/URL] and the forum associated with the project is this one, "15k Search" on Mersenneforum.
[/b]
"L9_", "TTn" and other incarnactions of Shane are free to do whatever they want. Running an "official forum" with no members can certainly be fun :smile:

"DC info forum" is also free to do and list whatever they want. I believe that the majority of our new users come from GIMPS and other projects on Mersenneforum not by way of any other web site.

Now instead of wasting time on this, let's go and find some primes. :cool:

Jwb52z 2005-10-26 05:57

The next time I hear from Kirk, I will tell him that I agree that most people will not use the Yahoo forum and stay here.

L9_ 2005-10-26 12:06

Correction
 
[QUOTE]
Originally posted by Kosmaj
the forum associated with the project is this one, "15k Search" on Mersenneforum.[/QUOTE]

You're incorrect by the project's descriptive definition.
Please see the 15k project at the database:
[url]http://primes.utm.edu/bios/page.php?lastname=15k[/url]

This forum is not following the definition to find n, that produce many primes.
The official forum associated with the project is here:
[url]http://groups.yahoo.com/group/15kSearch/[/url]

Kosmaj 2005-10-27 06:14

Nonsense
 
[QUOTE=L9_]This forum is not following the definition to find n, that produce many primes.[/QUOTE]The project is looking for [I]k[/I], not [I]n[/I], that produce many primes.

And that's exactly what we are doing, searching for primes for promising valuse of [I]k[/I]. Thus, k=2995125705 has been checked to n=800k, k=210885 to n=536k, and k=355424355 to n=480k and many primes were found. All three are in progress. Furthermore many other values of [I]k[/I] have been checked by individual members.

You never took part in above team efforts, and in fact I cannot remember when have you suggested a new [I]k[/I], or found any reportable 15k*2^n-1 prime. Certainly not in last 6-7 months, maybe more. Then you come from nowhere and announce that the forum is moving!! Well, I don't want to be treated in this manner. Therefore I'm staying here and will continue searching for 15k primes. But if you continue to misbehave I'll consider other options.

Citrix 2005-10-27 07:43

I think who ever started the project has the right to decide which forum will be used. But if the project moves to yahoo groups alot of users will be lost. So I recommend staying here, but it is TTn's decision to take. In any case let the admins know about the move so the threads can be archived.

Good luck in either case,
Citrix

grobie 2005-10-27 10:20

Well I hate it, but even [url]http://distributedcomputing.info/updates.html[/url] announced fourm change. I'll be moving on, dont like yahoo fourm at all.

Cruelty 2005-10-27 10:38

Well, I don't like stoping half-way with my k=736320585 (right now I am at n=350000)... but if there are some new rules concerning participation in "15k project", namely new forum (that I really [B]don't[/B] like), or the way the communication goes (see this thread), or the fact that RMA.NET is being pushed (I [B]really[/B] don't want to install any more MS crap on my PC)...
I perfectly understand that the project leader has a right to do with his project whatever he/she wishes but I don't have to comply blindly.

If others feel similar about the current situation, then perhaps we could launch a brand new project here :question:

Kosmaj 2005-10-27 13:55

Yahoo is full with ads, and it sucks. But it sucks even more that there was no discussion, nobody was consulted or informed about the move. Reasons are completely unclear. The only thing I can think about is that Shane was maybe banned again from Mersenneforum.

As for new projects I plan to start a new project to search for k*2^n-1, (k<300) primes. I'll do it as soon as I find next such prime. The problem is what to do with 15k values that are currently being sieved or tested. Here is what can be done:

(1) Continue like nothing happened and submit your primes using the current 15k prover's code. Using the software of you chosing. RMA is a nice attempt but I suspect it's full with bugs. I also don't want and cannot install MS libraries on some of my machines. And it is completely useless if one is sieving and testing on different machines. It doesn't matter at all where the "official" forum is located. This is completely doable but I agree that it's a little strange that we are trying to save the project from the founder who wants to destroy it.

(2) We can submit new 15k primes using a new prover's code without including "15 Search".

(3) We can start a new project. If we continue using only k's divisible by 15 the only name that comes to mind is "New 15k Search". But we can also extend it to include other k's (not divisible by 15) which can produce many primes. Larry found a few such k's recently (cannot found the thread now). Then we can call it "High weight Riesel" or something like that.

(4) Move to Yahoo.

So, if you want let's vote.

xilman 2005-10-27 14:23

[QUOTE=Kosmaj]Yahoo is full with ads, and it sucks. But it sucks even more that there was no discussion, nobody was consulted or informed about the move. Reasons are completely unclear. The only thing I can think about is that Shane was maybe banned again from Mersenneforum.[/QUOTE]
Unfortunately, he pushed his luck too far in a Soap Box thread (supposed threatening behaviour) and Xyzzy banished him to the sin bin again.

A pity in some ways. He wanted to fight dirty and I was just warming up for the bout :showoff: when the referee stopped the contest. Oh well, it's his forum and not mine.


Sorry to go slightly off-topic.


Paul

Templus 2005-10-27 15:05

I am staying on this forum.
Although I have not submitted that much primes, I knowthat there is a good communication between forummembers about the projects and reserved values on this forum.
Why would we change to another 'forum'? I like it here! I have been here since the beginning (not quite active poster, but an active cruncher). I have worked on many k's, I am currently working on k=93 and some low-weights.

Also, I am not going to use a buggy program that will automate the primesearch. I am used to manual using LLR and newPgen and that's the way I shall continue on trying to find primes.
As for the suggestions Kosmaj posted: I personally vote for option 3.

Again: I am staying! :cool:

lsoule 2005-10-27 16:44

I agree that Yahoo is unworkable for this type of project and
am staying put as well. I will keep running my 15k candidates
though may shift to the candidates that are not on the 'official'
reservation page.

The other issue is who 'owns' a distributed computing project
like this? The founder from years ago, the active members,
or the people who have been working behind the scenes for years
running the project? Probably not answerable, but the critical
mass seems to be staying here and not moving to the new
'15k RMA project' :wink:

-Larry

Cruelty 2005-10-27 16:49

I'm for #3. Proposed project name: "mersenneforum.org prime search" :smile:

Joshua2 2005-10-27 17:42

I don't want to move. I'd like us to keep the prover code though, so we can still be high on the lists. :grin:

grobie 2005-10-27 18:23

I will stay here, but not going to crunch k's that dont belong to this forum. I like the folks here, they been very helpful, so if this forum decides to start something new I'm in. I just hate the thought to lose the code though!! I feel the prover code belongs to 15K members not an individual.

I vote for #3.

If someone will tell me what needs to be crunched in the meantime...

thommy 2005-10-27 19:42

Yes. Totally unclear why this move is made. Any comments, TTn, Shane?
I'd like to use rma, but the .NET install requirement is a no-go for me. Don't think its buggy, many updates are made in the past...
But this move is really wrong, Shane.

garo 2005-10-27 20:07

TTn was banned as he threatened various people and sent malicious messages to the moderators. This was all due to a thread in the SoapBox. You guys may remember that he was banned once before but allowed back in on the promsie that he will stay within the 15k forum. He did not keep to that promise but we let that go. But his behavior - such as sending three messages in quick succession to all mods complaining about other people's posts made it hard not to come down on him. As you have seen he has signed up again as L9_.

Since he is primarily a part of the 15k community what do you guys think should be done. Please send me and Xyzzy and akruppa PMs if you want to make a comment in private.

L9_ 2005-10-28 01:19

15k Move reply to members
 
Kosmaj,
>The project is looking for k, not n, that produce many primes.

The project description clearly has stated all along, that we are
looking for k, AND n that produce many primes.
Not just fixed k, but also fixed n. Furthermore k, is a value and
not nessesarily an integer.

L9 has spent lots more CPU time than any of you, in reguards to team efforts.
In order to uphold perfection, we perform double-checks on completed
15k reservations. Our results of George's acuracy rate was expected.
The reason you don't remember anything, is because you essentially
jumped into things in midstream.


lsoule,
You dont have to shift from the reservation page, but ofcourse
that's up to you.

We thought the Owner issue, may be hard to answer too.
A. Shane is the founder, and an active member, and has been working
behind the scenes, while delveloping RMA.NET for future members.

B. Since Shane has the soul password for the descriptive data the
answer is simple. If this forum were to continue claiming it's the
true 15k forum, it would look wrong because the actual project data
says so.
It's doubtfull legal recourse would apply, nor would I seek it.



grobie,
The prover code does belong to the 15k members, and Shane happens
to be one of them.
As a member he must have access to the forum too. Right?
If you all don't care about the founders voice, then you really
shouldn't expect a free ride with 15k anyway.



thommy,
There are a lot of reservations about the .NET install requirement,
but in the near future it will be common.
This move is the best thing that's happened to 15k. Ya, ya...wide
open for an insult here.



Citrix,
Thanks for the level-headed comment



Grobie,
Goodbye



Cruelty,
Sorry you don't like the forum.
However, there are no rules concerning participation, and RMA.NET is
not required.
You could start a new project from scratch, and really show those
15k'ers.
Completely understandable.
And some others may want to ride the 15k wave, and keep the high
number of primes.



Paul,
blah, blah, and/or blah.
With dellusions of grandure, that someday he will actually work for
Microsoft...



Templus,
We didn't expect all members to move to a new forum.



Joshua2,
That's ok too. I dont mind if you contribute to the prover code, or
not.



garo
This is slanderous talk. Please don't deform Shane's character.
There were no threats, and the moderators lied about what was said.

It was never a promise to stay within the 15k forum, and the
previous ban was very similar to this one.
Here's how it went:

Shane gets insulted, then asks the person and moderators to stop
it, and then after nothing happens, a reply is sent with an equal
and opposite post.
This is used as an excuse to eliminate Shane from the GIMPS
competition.
It backfired this time, and it has now heightend the competition
level, and spurred new development already.
Shane's not about to beg, to be part of the project he created.
Sorry folks.

grobie 2005-10-28 01:32

bye, nobody said anything about free rides, least me. I agree founder does need to be a part of the fourum, however yahoo is not the answer, and never will work (well never say never) but I really doubt it. I had never commented about what happened because I know there are 2 sides to everything. I just wish that it was brought to the forum and decided by all members instead of being shoved down everyones throat.

Kosmaj 2005-10-28 02:35

[B]To all 15k members on this forum who don't want to join Shane[/B]

Please keep on testing whatever files you have been working on until now. If you find new, reportable primes please withold them (don't report them to the Top-5000) until we decide what to do. If we decide to start a new project we will need at least one such fresh prime to open the project.

Thanks.

xilman 2005-10-28 09:33

[QUOTE=L9_]
Paul,
blah, blah, and/or blah.
With dellusions of grandure, that someday he will actually work for
Microsoft... [/QUOTE]
[url]http://www.ieee-security.org/Cipher/ConfReports/2000/CR2000-Eurocrypt.html[/url]

Anyone interested can dig up other evidence of my having worked for Microsoft Research. I chose this one because the first paper on the program for that day of the conference was about the first factorization of a hard 512-bit integer.


Paul

akruppa 2005-10-28 09:41

[QUOTE=L9_]
Paul,
blah, blah, and/or blah.
With dellusions of grandure, that someday he will actually work for
Microsoft...
[/QUOTE]

This guy is killing me... Shane, do you realise what a fool you are making of yourself?

Alex

garo 2005-10-28 09:52

L9_,
If you wish I can post all the reports you sent to the mods. We can then let everyone decide. In the meantime those interested can take a look at:
[url]http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=4858[/url]
While the insults therein are incompetent and not cause for banning it becomes hard not to do so if we keep in mind TTn's attacks on George last time. You can do a search of the forums if you like.

Also, the moderators do not wish to harm the 15k project in any way and we all are very happy to provide any and all kind of support. We also acknowledge that the project may have been started by Shane/TTn (I am not 100% sure on this) and in that case he should have a say in the project. We would like to find out a way in which this can be worked out.

L9_ 2005-10-28 11:12

garo,
The project was started by only Shane.
Thomas Ritchel (L8)would be the only other major founder, that joined after L9. L9 actually was L7, but Chris Caldwell or his system made an error, and the prover code L7 had to be recycled, and L9 was issued to Shane.

We're open to a compromise, and honestly appologize for all the trouble.
The verbal agreement between Mike, and Shane Findley entailed that George Woltman was not to be insulted, or his program Prime95.
It was however mentioned that TTn should take it easy when posting.
This had been obeyed for a time, and now that he has become a developer, a lot more is understood about the mechanics.
There is no need to question authority anymore.
Shane has a great respect for George. :surrender
The tools being used for these projects, may be questionable. :ermm:

L9 is having a group meeting, in person this weekend to talk about changing the home/forum status. Funding is always an issue, but it seems warranted.

Kosmaj 2005-10-28 11:45

A proposal for Shane
 
Shane,
I have the following proposal for you.
You were banned here but it has nothing to do with "15k Search" forum here, nor with any of its members. You cannot post using your old TTn nick and you don't like to use your new nick L9_. So, you want to move to Yahoo. Cool! You and those who want to join you go to Yahoo and search for 15k primes there while those who don't want to join you stay here. As for the form of numbers to search for I suggest the following division.

[B]Shane on Yahoo[/B]
1) 15k*2^n-1 for all fixed n. [Since I joined 15k in December 2003 not one such search has been started but I found some numbers on the stats page with fixed n=150000 and 144444 IIRC.] They are yours.

2) You can take with you and work on [I]all[/I] exponents listed on [URL=http://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=641]JOIN US, CHOOSE A CANDIDATE by Robinson weight[/URL] page. We only have to find a way to handle already reserved k's.

[B]Kosmaj and the others who prefer to stay here[/B]
1) We'd like to proceed working on k=2995125705 and k=210885. We also have k=355424355 but it was sieved only to n=500k and there is almost nothing left there.

2) We'll come up with new 15k exponents shortly. As the matter of fact me, Larry and segmtfault have been sieving 16 completely new k's (not listed on the above page and with no reported primes). In about 36 hrs from now the sieving will be complete to p=600bn. The exponents involved are 200-400k.

Both the people who join Shane on Yahoo, and those who stay here will continue reporting primes using their existing 15k prover's codes.

It will be nice if on the project's web page on Top-5000 in the explanation you include the URL of this forum. Please also remove the "don't be fooled" clause. I'd also like to ask the guys at DC web site to include our URL within the text about 15k.

This is the best I can think of. Please tell me what do you think.

Kosmaj

Thomas11 2005-10-28 12:10

I'm a bit concerned about the things going on here! :unsure:

First of all, we should note that the original idea of the 15k-Search project, originating to Shane Findley (L9), was to look for k-values [B]divisable by 15[/B], that produce a lot of primes k*2^n-1. This was back in 2003.

When Shane was banned, the project lost it's moderator and shortly after that a few of it's members. There was a follow-up, currently moderated by Kosmaj, Jocelyn Larouche and Larry Soule.
This "new" 15k-Search divided into a few branches, e.g.: the search for low weight Riesel primes, the completion of Hans Riesels/Wilfrid Kellers "list of primes k*2^n-1 for k=1-300", and still the seach for values of k that produce of lot of primes, of which the latter one is related to Shanes original 15k-Search.

To my opinion there should be at least a distinct differentiation between values of k which are divisable by 15 (and therefore still contribute to one of the "15k-Searches") and which are not. For the latter there should be a distict project name (and project code at Chris Caldwells database). Most of you may have already realized that I never used one of my "15k-Search" prover codes (L8 or L19) for primes not divisable by 15 (and you know, there are a few megabit primes for small and low weight k-values for L10)...

Nevertheless, we should find some arrangement with Shane. Speaking for myself, I would still submit new primes using the "15k" prover codes, as long as k is divisable by 15.
Though, I'm currently not looking for such numbers...

Thomas Ritschel (L8, L10, etc. ...)

garo 2005-10-28 13:57

Kosmaj/Thomas11 - you guys are talking of breaking up a project which is actually more to the point than my post. So I am talking my discussion offline. I will keep this thread posted as and when things develop.

L9_ 2005-10-28 14:13

>1) 15k*2^n-1 for all fixed n. [Since I joined 15k in December 2003 not one such search has been started but I found some

>numbers on the stats page with fixed n=150000 and 144444 IIRC.] They are yours.

No they are not.
Fixed n searches have been started and posted, you just ignored them.

FYI Others will often follow, that kind of suggestive behaviour.
How could Shane introduce new members here into a biased group, that has blacklisted him?
Ofcourse recruiting has not started yet, until the project/home/forum/RMA.NET is fully ready.
The new recruits may not be of your peers anyway, so another forum was already in the plans.


> You can take with you and work on all exponents listed on JOIN US, CHOOSE A CANDIDATE by Robinson weight page. We only

>have to find a way to handle already reserved k's.

Reserved k's may have to be reworked a little, but the native forum will yield to this one. That's only fair.


>We'll come up with new 15k exponents shortly. As the matter of fact me, Larry and segmtfault have been sieving 16

>completely new k's (not listed on the above page and with no reported primes). In about 36 hrs from now the sieving will be

>complete to p=600bn. The exponents involved are 200-400k.

Sieving to a p bound, is not the optimum stategy for sieving, but that's your choice here.
As a leader Shane would not be endorsing the stategy.


>...the people who join Shane on Yahoo, and those who stay here will continue reporting primes using their existing 15k

>prover's codes.

That would make future individuals, and the current group satisfied.


>It will be nice if on the project's web page on Top-5000 in the explanation you include the URL of this forum. Please also

>remove the "don't be fooled" clause. I'd also like to ask the guys at DC web site to include our URL within the text about

>15k.
>This is the best I can think of. Please tell me what do you think.

A link to this forum from both sites is reasonable, under the following conditions:
There is a clearer specification between the main forum for future novice users, and the previously existing 15k forum here.
This will need some work, and must be discussed by L9 collectively.

Additional request required
Any posts by TTn, that are in the "Crank" bin, must be taken out.
This is not to be recorded, as the true character of someone who has developed a usefull program, in the field of Mersenne

primes. This takes either extreme talent or much time.
Shane may have more time than talent, but it adds up with an above average IQ and autism.
This area relating to Mersenne's is the Riesel Mersenne Algorithm, and has been verified, and endorsed by John Forbes Nash.
Perhaps, this is percieved wrong,... in fact it probably is.

John's return letter to Shane starts out with the first line:
"At first I thought it was another nut letter, but then I researched your work on primes."
You may ask him by postal mail, to verify the correspondence. He will email you back.
If you do, send one letter only as a group please.

Shane had learned, not to waste time on useless theorems etc, by that point.
So the question was sent to a true authority in the field.
RMA.NET would not exist if this letter was not replied to.

BTW. He also worked on mathematical equations, to prove the existence of GOD.
Some people did think he was still crazy, but his work was based upon the rare probability of certain events occuring.
He had a much more involved heuristic too! Be carefull when assuming someone is a "crankster".








Thomas,
Acutally the project description never said 15k, needed to be evenly divisable by 15. ...searching for [B]values[/B] k... not integers, as would be the definition.
You did seem to impose a self restriction to the form.

Citrix 2005-10-28 16:14

In my opinion since the project was started by Shane, he should get complete control of all k's that are divisible by 15. I vote that Shane should have the first choice on all 15*k's.

For the other smaller projects (low wt & k<300) since they were started by Joss and others, they should stay here and Shane should not try to move them to Yahoo!

Citrix

masser 2005-10-28 17:46

Shane can't have complete control over 15k's. That's just silly. And from what he's posted here, I don't think he wants that.

His initial post above was in no way mean-spirited and doesn't seem to merit all of the negative attention it has received.

I suggest:

1. We rename our Project and Sub-Forum "Riesel Search" or something general like that.

2. (For those worried about the Primes Pages standings) Maybe we can contact Chris Caldwell and have our prover codes credit the new project name and remove the 15k credit.

3. Keep an eye on Shane/TTn/L9's activities at the Yahoo forum, just to make sure we aren't duplicating his work.

Best regards,
masser

Kosmaj 2005-10-28 23:44

Shane,

I don't want to discuss any conditions with you and we are done here.

I'm leaving your "15k Search" project and together with the others we are going to start our own project soon. That will be discussed in another thread. This invalidates my offer that you control fix [I]n[/I] search and [I]k[/I]'s listed on the "Robinson weight" page. We, like everybody else, are free to search for whatever primes we want.

Citrix 2005-10-29 00:09

[QUOTE=masser] Keep an eye on Shane/TTn/L9's activities at the Yahoo forum, just to make sure we aren't duplicating his work.

Best regards,
masser[/QUOTE]
If you are then who gets to decide who will do the work?

Citrix

grobie 2005-10-29 17:19

L9, dont get me wrong here, I love what TTn has done here, the format is just what I'm looking for to be a member of, and if wanting to give my cycle times from my boxes is getting a free ride, then yes I am. I have NEVER ask for anything here but just to participate, so I took it personal when you said that. I hope things can be worked out. My one and ONLY concern is doing a k and not being able to have a way to post in a forum I will not join (and its not because of you, I like you from the posts we traded, its yahoo I'm upset about)

This post is to clear something that has got misunderstood, So dont ever say I'm in it for a free ride. I'm not

Grobie - Tony

L9_ 2005-10-30 00:25

Thanks for the support guys,
The only thing going to yahoo will be native to the original search.
L9 will yield to this forum for in whatever way seems reasonable.

However, EFF candidates remain fair game.
Ofcourse as Kosmaj has said
"We, like everybody else, are free to search for whatever primes we want."
Overall this would probably spark more competition, and development, if it were to become trendy. A concept that has been thought about early on.
If there is no reasonable solution reached, all are fair game to poach.
I have developed stategies for this, just in case of such an event.


Grobie,
Sorry, that comment was not intented towards you. I feel really bad.
The context was also wrong. It was meant towards moderation in general.

L9 has decided to fund a new home, and a similar style forum for 15k.
The problem is that it's going to take months to finish securely.
RMA.NET 0.9 must also be completed within that time, so that mult-instancing works, on all machines.

grobie 2005-10-30 03:41

great, all is good. Now this is the tone that all will be acceptable too, and a discussion can go foward to what & how things can go to most everyone satisfaction. This group has come a long way from what I can read & I hate to see it torn apart.


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