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-   Game 2 - ♔♕♙♘♖♙ - Shaolin Pirates (https://www.mersenneforum.org/forumdisplay.php?f=105)
-   -   White 17 (https://www.mersenneforum.org/showthread.php?t=18983)

cheesehead 2013-12-06 22:26

White 17
 
I'll try to remember to post a link, early in this and our future move threads, to their most recent announcement in the Vote Chess thread, for time reference during our future move deliberations.

cheesehead 2013-12-13 17:49

Their most recent move (16 ... c4): [URL]http://mersenneforum.org/showpost.php?p=361971&postcount=103[/URL]

Our deadline: Friday, December 20, 9:54 am GMT = 2:54 PM Thai time = 4:54 AM EST = 3:54 AM CST

- -

We seem to have been discussing a Black ... c4 only after some other 16th move. They, of course, have played it now at the proper time.

Some candidates for us now:

[B]17 d4[/B]

Makes our e-pawn sort of a dagger, but shuts out our Bc5 and Nd4 possibilities

[B]17 dxc4
[/B]
But then 17 ... bxc4 nicely opens up the b-file for their rook.

[B]17 Nf2[/B]

Surely they wouldn't be so accommodating as to play 17 ... cxd3 allowing us lots of possibilities after 18 Nxd3 ?
OTOH this would bring up our back-row knight for further adventure on e4 or g4 (Nf2-g4-h6 looks attractive!) --- but we could do that anyway with 18 Nf2 after 17 d4.
OTOOH Nf2 leaves our B/e3 without a defender after their Nd5 or Nf5

[B]17 Bc5[/B]

If 17 ... cxd3 18 Nf2 d2 19 R/ad1

- -

[I]But here's an interesting alternative:[/I]

[B]17 Ng5[/B] threatening to take the f-pawn!

If 17 ... f6 or 17 ... f5 then 18 exf6 piece-fork

If 17 ... Nxe5 18 d4 Nd3 is rather invasive but 19 Nxf7 is even more so. (19 ... O-O 20 Nh6+ or 19 ... Rf8 20 Nd6+)

If 17 ... Nxe5 18 d4 Ng4 19 Nxf7

Or 17 ... Bxe5 18 d4 Bc7 (or ... Bg7) 19 Nxf7

If 17 ... cxd3 18 Nxf7

17 ... O-O may be better for Black. 18 d4 looking at Nf2-e4

[i]Or, maybe best of all,[/i]

17 ... Nf5

Needs more analysis.

17 ... Nf5 18 d4 O-O 19 maybe g4

cheesehead 2013-12-13 23:24

Continuing analysis:

[B]17 Ng5 Nf5[/B]

Try: [B]18 Bb6[/B] (threatening 19 Bxc6+ Bxc6 20 Bxa5)
But 18 ... cxd3 leaves our e-pawn hanging, and 19 Bxc6+ Bxc6 20 Bxa5 Bxe5 doesn't look good for us.

Try: [B]18 d4[/B] (preserving pawns and the Ne4-f6 threat)
18 ... O-O 19 Bd2 (to preserve threats at g5-h5)
then if 19 ... f6 20 Nxe6
if 19 ... h6 20 Ne4

Try: [B]18 g4[/B]
18 ... Nxe3 19 Nxe3 O-O 20 d4 (preserving pawns and the Ne4-f6 threat) then what's good for Black here?

- - -

[B]17 d4[/B] may be best for us, but needs more analysis.

If [b]17 d4[/b] O-O 18 what?

If [b]17 d4[/b] Nf5 18 what?

cheesehead 2013-12-14 08:32

More speculation:

[B]17 Ng5 Nf5 [/B][B]18 d4 O-O 19 Bd2

[/B]19 ... Nce7 20 Ne4 Nd5 21 Ndf2 h5

cheesehead 2013-12-15 00:09

Another idea: deter Nf5

[b]17 g4[/b]

17 ... h6 But that also allows deterrence of Ng5.

- - -

Back to:

[b]17 d4[/b]

[b]17 ... O-O[/b]
Speculation: 18 Ng5 Nf5 19 Ne4 Nce7 20 g4 Nh4 21 Bg5
or 20 ... Nxe3 21 Nxe3 h6
or 20 Nc5 Bxg2 21 Kxg2 Rfd8 22 Bg5

[b] 17 ... Nf5[/b]
18 Ng5 O-O transposes into preceding speculation.

cheesehead 2013-12-15 15:02

[QUOTE=cheesehead;361992]
[I]But here's an interesting alternative:[/I]

[B]17 Ng5[/B] threatening to take the f-pawn!

< snip >

If 17 ... Nxe5 18 d4 Nd3 is rather invasive but 19 Nxf7 is even more so. (19 ... O-O 20 Nh6+ or 19 ... Rf8 20 Nd6+)[/QUOTE]I didn't give 18 ... Nd3 the respect it deserved. It's [I]very[/I] invasive, but can be rooted out.

[B]17 Ng5 Nxe5 18 d4 Nd3 19 Nxf7 O-O[/B] (not 19 ... Rf8 which loses a bishop after 20 Nd6+) [B]20 Nh6+[/B]
Then after 20 ... Bxh6 21 Bxh6 Rxf1+ 22 Bxf1 Nf5 23 Bg5 Bf3 (23 ... Rf8 24 Bxd3 cxd3 25 Nf2 d2 26 Rd1) 24 Rb1 Bxd1 25 Bxd3 Bf3 26 Bf1
Black has a weak e-pawn and we have the two bishops, which should allow us a slight advantage.

cheesehead 2013-12-16 23:43

Sorry for the multiple posts, but this position has me really intrigued!

(BTW thanks, guys, for [B]15 e5[/B]. That was just the right time for that push. I totally missed seeing that after the pawn exchange we'd have the f-file half-opened so beautifully for our castled rook -- that's one of my blind spots.)

- -

I should summarize:

[B]17 d4[/B] - 5
[B]17 Ng5[/B] - 2 (exciting but probably ultimately unsound and losing)

[B]17 dxc4[/B] - minus 5

LaurV 2013-12-17 02:30

Man, thank you for all the effort you do there, and I am very sorry I did not participate yet. You may not know, if you don't read some threads here, I already posted somewhere that I have some friends from around Chicago visiting me for Christmas (they are already here, living in our house, and will leave after the New Year), we didn't see each other for about 7 years and you imagine we have lots to talk and show, going here and there, showing them around, etc. The wives, which are already a small nuisance :razz: may became a [B]BIG[/B] one if I start playing chess in the evening when I arrive home. Moreover, the past weekend I had lots of trouble installing a new rig for factoring (see the mfakto related threads) and no time for chess. Not to mention that since 5th of December, when SWMBO stayed home (Thai national holiday, king's birthday), my chess board magically disappeared from the main room where it was set, and an (artificial - no way to get a natural one here) Christmas tree appeared instead of it...

So, if I don't get some time to look to the position today or tomorrow (I am not promising anything!) then we go by your analysis. I am trusting you as being the best player in our former or actual team, including myself (sorry WMH :blush:)

WMHalsdorf 2013-12-17 04:00

Got buried in some work. After looking over the analysis presented along with what little I looked at (mostly deeper into Ng5 which is another minefield) I would have to rate d4 as the best move at this time.

cheesehead 2013-12-17 06:52

Guys,

Don't feel you have to apologize at length for attending to real-life matters instead of this game! Just do what you have to do (especially during this holiday season), and come back to chess only when you have done all more-important things.

I wasn't expecting either of you to necessarily reply rapidly ... or perhaps at all! I know how busy one can get with important real-life matters, especially during the holiday season. It so happens that my holiday schedule became less crowded (for no unpleasant reason) that I had expected, so I had leisure to push around chess pieces.

LaurV,

I'm always prepared to post our next move to the "Vote Chess game 2" thread if you haven't posted anything here or there by, say, a day before the deadline. So, please fulfill your real-life obligations without worrying about this game.

We're a _team_, and we each contribute what we can at any particular time. I almost certainly have more leisure time than either of you for the next couple of weeks.

I find our current game position fascinating, and have enjoyed following out some speculations and presenting them so you could just review them quickly. :-)

- - -

Back to why I came here to post again tonight:

I looked more at Black's potential responses after [B]17 d4[/B], and found that their best might be 17 ... f6. (They certainly wouldn't wait for us to get 18 Ng5 in before pushing their f-pawn.)

[B]17 d4 f6[/B]

[B]18 exf6 [/B]is probably our best here, but there is still the possibility of the adventurous:

[B]18 Bf4[/B] g5 19 exf6 (simultaneous attack on B, N and R! I don't think I've ever had that possibility in any previous game I've played) gxf4 20 fxg7 Rg8 21 gxf4 Rxg7 and we've gained a pawn ... at the expense of having a rook aimed at our King! But the position is still fluid if we want to live dangerously...

For instance,
22 Ng5 Kd7 (or 22 ... h6? 23 Nxe6 Rg6 24 Nc7+ Kd7 25 Nxb5 Nxd4 26 Nxd4 Rxg2+ 27 Kh1 Rxb2+ 28 Nf3 Rd2 29 Kg1 and now either ... Bxf3 or ... Rd-moves (but not ... Rd3 30 Ne5+))
23 Nf2 Ng6 24 Nfe4 threatening 25 Nc5+

or

18 ... fxe5 (Now be careful -- some permutation of captures could allow some surprise -- I'm not going through all of them yet) 19 Bxe5 Nxe5 20 Nxe5 Bxe5 21 dxe5 Bxg2 22 Kxg2 Nc6 23 Re1 Rd8 24 Nf2 and now 24 ... Rd5 25 Ng4 Ke7 or 24 ... Rf8 (24 ... O-O just takes the king away from where it's needed) 25 Ng4 Ke7 This might be drawish.

- - -

Anyway, I now see our main line as:
[B]
[B]17 d4 f6 [/B]18 exf6 Bxf6 19 Bf4[/B] and Black's best is probably 19 ... Rd8 20 Nf2 and we can threaten with Rae1, Ne4 or g4.

cheesehead 2013-12-17 11:37

[QUOTE=cheesehead;362262]
Anyway, I now see our main line as:
[B]
[B]17 d4 f6 [/B]18 exf6 Bxf6 19 Bf4[/B] and Black's best is probably 19 ... Rd8 20 Nf2 and we can threaten with Rae1, Ne4 or g4.[/QUOTE]There's another possibly good move for Black's 17th:

[B]17 ... Nd5[/B]

18 Ng5 O-O 19 Bd2 Nce7 20 Ne4 Nf5 21 Nc5 Bc6 22 Nf2 but Black probably has something better along that way.

18 Bd2 f6 19 exf6 Bxf6 20 Ne3 Nxe3 21 Bxe3 looks okay for us
If 20 ... Nce7 21 Ng4 and 22 Rae1

- -

All in all, if Black challenges our e5 pawn with f6, he's left with a backward isolatee at e6.

I intend to post

[B]17 d4[/B]

as our move about/after 0300 GMT Thursday Dec 19 (= 0800 Thai time = 2200 EST Wednesday Dec 18) unless I hear otherwise from you guys before then.

LaurV 2013-12-17 18:23

Very interesting, and very comprehensive analysis. I had a look to it, my guests are sleeping now. Nice, you invested a lot of work.

I also like 17.d4 better than other discussed moves. As you said before (reveeeengeeee! hehe) "we need to analyze every aspect, to avoid making mistakes". :razz: I was looking to 17...a4 (in fact, I desperately searched some variant which is not in your analysis, hehe). In this case, we can't play too much, queen side is totaly blocked, the only move which makes sense is 18.Ng5 then ...Nf5.

Then what? 19.g4,Nxe3,Nxe3,Bh6 21.h4,Bxg5,hxg5,h6 23.gxh6 Rxh6, and we eliminated almost all pieces from the board hehe... This looks ok for us, I mean it is not a clear win, but it is not a lose either... I believe 17...a4 is their best reply to d4, because it locks the queen side, and on the king side, their king is more protected, our is more open.

Then I was thinking "what if we move a4 first?". We discussed a4 a bit during the former moves, but you forgot it here. I bet they miss it too, this is not easy to see, but remember? "be aggressive!" hehe... Now, if we do 17.a4, they can not beat d3. If they do, 18.axb5 Nxe5 (forced, no place for the horse) 19 Nxe5 Bxe5 and with either Ba7 first, or Rxa5 directly, we have recovered our pawn and have 3 (three!) free pawns on the b/c columns. This is heavy! It will be our game for sure.

Also: 17...bxa4, we still can push 18.d4 - where your all analysis stands right, but this time we are *not* blocked on the queen's side, and they can not defend the pawn in a4 (both black pawns in "a" fall in few moves).

If they force the exchange first: 17.a4 Nxe5 Nxe5 Bxe5 19.axb5 and we open the rook, they can not defend both c4 and a5 pawns, therefore will exchange 19...cxd3 20.Rxa5, and again we have free pawns.

I think this version is better than playing directly d4.

So, my vote will be:
17.a4 - 5 points
17.d4 - 4 points
17.Ng5 - 3 points (this is a very interesting move too!)
other discussed moves except dxc4 - 1 point
17.dxc4 - zero (this looks very bad for me, and also from your analysis)

Please have a look to this "a4" before posting, it seems to have enough potential. If is not convincing, then feel free to post any move, in time [edit: i mean "d4", not "any" move!]. I don't think I will go more into it this time, i.e. nor to analyze it, neither to post it, till after christmas I don't think I will play any chess. I trust you both with any decision you might take.

(p.s.: maybe we can adjourn? everybody will have christmas, or holidays, and it is not fun, at least for me, if I don't see and "feel" what you play. We can say on the public forum that we decided the move and we want the envelope to adjourn, the supermods are our witnesses that we will not change the move after we "voted" it - is that right?)

cheesehead 2013-12-18 11:32

Excellent ideas!
[QUOTE=LaurV;362326]I was looking to 17...a4 (in fact, I desperately searched some variant which is not in your analysis, hehe).[/quote]Thank you for not having the same blind spot as I did! Never thought about a4.

[quote]In this case, we can't play too much, queen side is totaly blocked, the only move which makes sense is 18.Ng5 then ...Nf5. [/quote]Just to be clear here, you're discussing
[b]17 d4 a4
18 Ng5 Nf5[/b]

[quote]Then what? 19.g4,Nxe3[/quote][U]Don't forget 19 ... Nh4[/U] instead!!
20 Nxf7 Nxg2 21 Nxh8 Nxe3 22 Nxe3 Bxh8 23 Rf2 Bg7 24 Raf1 Bh6 25 Ng2 and we'll have given our three former most-active pieces for doubled rooks but an awkward remaining knight. Black still has his white-square bishop staring at our king position, but also positional problems on his king-side.

But let's continue with
[b]17 d4 a4
18 Ng5 Nf5
19 g4 Nxe3[/b]
[quote]20Nxe3,Bh6 21.h4,Bxg5,hxg5,h6 23.gxh6 Rxh6, and we eliminated almost all pieces from the board hehe... This looks ok for us, I mean it is not a clear win, but it is not a lose either...[/quote]I'm not comfortable with that particular result.

[quote]Then I was thinking "what if we move a4 first?". We discussed a4 a bit during the former moves, but you forgot it here.[/quote]I certainly did.

(to be continued)

cheesehead 2013-12-18 12:27

(continued from preceding post)

[QUOTE]I bet they miss it too, this is not easy to see, but remember? "be aggressive!" hehe... Now, if we do 17.a4, they can not beat d3. If they do,[/QUOTE][B]17 a4 cxd3[/B]
[quote]18.axb5 Nxe5 (forced, no place for the horse) 19 Nxe5 Bxe5 and with either Ba7 first, or Rxa5 directly, we have recovered our pawn and have 3 (three!) free pawns on the b/c columns. This is heavy! It will be our game for sure.[/quote]Looks good.

[quote]Also: 17...bxa4, we still can push 18.d4[/quote][B]17 a4 bxa4
18 d4[/B]
[quote] - where your all analysis stands right, but this time we are *not* blocked on the queen's side, and they can not defend the pawn in a4 (both black pawns in "a" fall in few moves).

If they force the exchange first: 17.a4 Nxe5 18 Nxe5 Bxe5[/quote](Here we have the option of 19 Bf4 Bxf4 20 Rxf4 instead. Does this have merit?)

[quote]19.axb5 and we open the rook,[/quote][B]17 a4 Nxe5
18 Nxe5 Bxe5
19 axb5[/B]

[quote]they can not defend both c4 and a5 pawns,[/quote]If 19 ... Bc7 then 20 dxc4 and maybe 20 ... Nf5 21 Bg5 Nd6 22 Bf6 Rb8 (or O-O) 23 Ne3

[quote]therefore will exchange 19...cxd3 20.Rxa5, and again we have free pawns. [/quote]Looks good.

[quote]I think this version is better than playing directly d4.

So, my vote will be:
17.a4 - 5 points
17.d4 - 4 points
17.Ng5 - 3 points (this is a very interesting move too!)
other discussed moves except dxc4 - 1 point
17.dxc4 - zero (this looks very bad for me, and also from your analysis)

< snip >

(p.s.: maybe we can adjourn?[/quote]Excellent idea! I'll forward this to the "Vote Chess game 2" thread.

[quote]everybody will have christmas, or holidays, and it is not fun, at least for me, if I don't see and "feel" what you play. We can say on the public forum that we decided the move and we want the envelope to adjourn, the supermods are our witnesses that we will not change the move after we "voted" it - is that right?)[/quote]- - -

Excellent! I just posted that proposal, with slight change, on "Vote Chess game 2".

- - -

Now I just have to post my move vote here. /* thinking, thinking ... */

cheesehead 2013-12-18 18:28

Brian is consulting with his team about the adjournment proposal. No reply as of a few minutes ago.

- -

Meanwhile, I've decided that LaurV's confuse-them-by-offering-yet-another-pawn-capture move a4 is at least as good as consolidate-the-center move d4 for us.

However, Black has another reply to a4 we haven't yet considered, and it may be better than 17 ... cxd3 or 17 ... Nxe5 :

[B]17 a4 b4[/B]
I don't think they'll just let us tear up their Q-side pawns on our terms.

[B]18 d4[/B] holds our central pawn spike together but 18 ... bxc3 19 bxc3 Nd5 seems to have nuisance value. However, that knight can't be in two places (i.e., Nf5) at once, so we could do 20 Ng5.
Now 20 ... f6 21 exf6 isn't a piece-fork ... but it still leaves their e-pawn undefended: 21 ... Bxf6 22 Nxe6 ... which in turn leaves their N/d5 undefended and attacked by our B/g2. If the N/d5 moves, that would leave the B/f6 [I]en prise[/I].

Here the Black king can advance to join in, with 22 ... Ke7 but that would take away a repositioning square for their N/c6 23 Nc5

Suppose instead 18 ... bxc3 19 bxc3 Nf5. Kinda familiar on the K-side. Now 20 Rb1 threatens winning a piece with 21 Ng5 and 22 Bxc6+. 20 ...Kd7 shores up Black's position a little. 21 Ng5 f6 22 exf6 Bxf6 23 g4 Nxe3 24 Rxf6 Nxg2 25 Kxg2 Nxd4+ 26 Rxb7+ Rxb7 27 cxd4 Rb6 28 Rf7+ and 29 R or N takes h7. Could be an interesting endgame, but I sense that Black may be better here.

[b]18 cxb4[/b]

I'm still looking at Black responses here ... but I'm preparing to leave to see a movie and don't have time for proper analysis now.

I'll be back this evening around 0200 GMT.

(Until then, I vote 17 d4 - 5 because it looks safest. Maybe after I can analyze Black responses to [b]17 a4 b4 18 cxb4[/b] I'll think 17 a4 is better.)

cheesehead 2013-12-19 03:46

As you could also see in the "Vote Chess game 2" thread, Batalov said he could hold the "envelope" PM with our move.

Brian said they'd be happy to adjourn, and also "If we could time one of your moves for the week 13th-17th January that would be useful for me as I have exams that week."

I see no reason not to accommodate Brian and have our 18th move deadline be January 18, by one of two different methods specified in the "Vote Chess game 2" thread:

Method 1 puts the burden of replying exactly on seventh day (no sooner) on each team (for two weeks):
1) Resumption date January 4, when our 17th move will be revealed by Batalov,
Gekkos' 17th move deadline would be January 11.
Then if Gekkos don't post 17th move until that day (no earlier than January 11),
then Pirates' 18th move deadline would be January 18, and if we hold our posting until January 18 (no sooner), then Gekkos' 18th move deadline would be January 25.

Method 2 puts the burden of replying exactly on seventh day (no sooner) on Batalov (for two weeks):
2) Or if Batalov will agree, both teams can send their moves by PM to him for two further weeks, and he:
posts Pirates' 17th move on January 4,
posts Gekko's 17th move on January 11, and
posts Pirates' 18th move on January 18.

- - -

Now, where's my analysis board for [B]17 a4 b4 18 cxb4 [/B]...

cheesehead 2013-12-19 05:39

[B]17 a4 b4
18 cxb4[/B][B] axb4
19 dxc4[/B]

19 ... Bxe5? 20 Nxe5 Nxe5 21 Bf4 Nec6 22 Bxc6+ Nxc6 23 Bxb8 Nxb8
or 22 ... Bxc6 23 Bxe5
or 21 ... f6 22 Re1 Bxg2 23 Bxe5 fxe5 24 Kxg2 and I like our chances here.

19 ... Nxe5 20 Bf4 Bxf3 21 Bxe5 Bxg2 22 Bxb8 Bxf1 23 Kxf1 b3 24 Ra3
and I like our chances here.

19 ... Nf5 20 Bc5

[B]19 d4[/B]
19 ... Nd5 20 Rc1 Na5

- -

[B]17 a4 b4[/B]
[B]18 dxc4 bxc3
19 Nxc3[/B] looks okay for us.

- -

So I vote for 17 a4, too, but not emphatically:

17 a4 - 3
17 d4 - 3

cheesehead 2013-12-19 18:52

The more I look at [b]17 a4 b4[/b] the more I see that our current a3-b2-c3 pawn formation prevents further incursion unless Black sacs. Note that Black can't play b5-b4 without allowing us the opportunity to capture axb4, thus opening up the half-file in front of our a-rook. Once we play a4, we give that up!

So,
[B]17 a4 b4[/B]
[B]18 dxc4 bxc3
19 Nxc3[/B]

looks worse than when I considered it last night.

My move vote is

17 d4 - 5
17 a4 - 2

LaurV 2013-12-20 02:00

[QUOTE=cheesehead;362444]As you could also see in the "Vote Chess game 2" thread, Batalov said he could hold the "envelope" PM with our move.

Brian said they'd be happy to adjourn, and also "If we could time one of your moves for the week 13th-17th January that would be useful for me as I have exams that week."

I see no reason not to accommodate Brian and have our 18th move deadline be January 18, by one of two different methods specified in the "Vote Chess game 2" thread[/QUOTE]
Works to me. Fully agree with that.

cheesehead 2013-12-20 02:16

Well, it's less than 7 hours until the deadline for our move 17.

I've looked a long time at 17 a4, as you requested, LaurV. It may be okay, but it gives Black more chances on the Q-side with 17 ... b4 than if we kept our a-pawn where it is.

I'm comfortable with 17 d4, Halsdorf is comfortable with d4, and it doesn't actually rule out a later a4 push (although that would have more impact with the d-pawn able to take the c-pawn). It does leave us with weaker squares at d3 and e4, but Black's going to have lots of trouble exploiting them, and e5 will be much stronger for us.

So, I'm sending the move

[b]17 d4[/b]

to Batalov via PM. Although we don't yet have 100% absolutely unquestioned agreement from the Gekkos about the adjournment procedure, this PM will timestamp our move and Batalov can post that timestamp for the Gekkos information.

LaurV 2013-12-20 09:22

[QUOTE=cheesehead;362511]
So, I'm sending the move
[B]17 d4[/B]
to Batalov via PM.[/QUOTE]
Ok, perfect, we trust you :razz:

cheesehead 2013-12-20 16:23

Correction of spelling of the plural of our worthy opponents' team name (though they haven't complained):[QUOTE=cheesehead;362511]< snip >
Although we don't yet have 100% absolutely unquestioned agreement from the [/QUOTE][strike]Gekkos[/strike] Geckos (or Gekkota) [quote]about the adjournment procedure, this PM will timestamp our move and Batalov can post that timestamp for the [/quote][strike]Gekkos[/strike] Geckos' (or Gekkota's) [quote]information.[/quote]

cheesehead 2013-12-20 18:11

A plausible continuation:

17 ... f6 18 exf6 Bxf6 19 Ng5 Bxg5 20 Bxg5 Nd5


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